Rant: And people wonder why they feel being fleeced by “mechanics”.

cyow5 said:

That "race car shop" did a fantastic job on my Elise, but at $400 a pop, I'm going with strings next time now that I have a good baseline. They were worth it for the baseline though; previous toe-and-go shops got good OE numbers, but they had to do very weird things with the shims to make it happen. Either my old bushings had sagged enough to need 7 shims on one side and 0 on the other, or their table was leaning to the side quite a bit...

I'm not recommending you necessarily find a race car shop, but a shop with evidence that someone there is doing more than just paying the bills. My local shop is definitely not a race shop, but racers work there and they take more care with my stuff because we understand each other. And that understanding goes both ways, I make their lives as easy as possible. 

cyow5 said:

That "race car shop" did a fantastic job on my Elise, but at $400 a pop,

This is about where I'm going to be once it's done. I don't expect a tech/mechanic to spend 3-5hrs fixing mine for $89 + tax, which most people do.

Ex stopped after seeing the car turned around. Spoke with a guy she talked on the phone to earlier when she made the appointment. Going to bring it home and have it worked into their schedule. Today was free of charge.

Re: Brakes and Rotors

Whether or not it needs new rotors isn't the point. Let's assume for the sake of argument that it does.

The point remains that changing pads and rotors is an easy job and pretty quick. The parts are not that expensive. I can get pads and rotors for all 4 corners for ~$200. Let's say the shop charges me DOUBLE that price for parts. Okay, $400 for parts. That's $600-$700 in labor. For brakes. Are they saying that it's going to take a competent mechanic 4-5 hours to change brake pads and rotors?

Beer Baron said:

Re: Brakes and Rotors

Whether or not it needs new rotors isn't the point. Let's assume for the sake of argument that it does.

The point remains that changing pads and rotors is an easy job and pretty quick. The parts are not that expensive. I can get pads and rotors for all 4 corners for ~$200. Let's say the shop charges me DOUBLE that price for parts. Okay, $400 for parts. That's $600-$700 in labor. For brakes. Are they saying that it's going to take a competent mechanic 4-5 hours to change brake pads and rotors?

What's the year, make, and model? Exactly what is the quoted work for? I'll look up standard labor times.

In reply to Beer Baron :

1.2-2.0 hrs per axle. 0.5-1.0 hr diag..... lets say they have a maintanence labor rate of $100/hr instead of the normal 150/hr.... 4 wheels are going to run 500$. And now you may have to hookup a scan tool to reset some module for another 1hr of labor..... Then you are getting into the nuance of taxes, shop supplies, manager fee, waste disposal fee, service writer needs a cut of this fee, etc.... So, yes to your question. 

DrBoost said:

What's the year, make, and model? Exactly what is the quoted work for? I'll look up standard labor times.

'03 Honda S2000.

Work is for front pad replacement at ~$700 and rear pads and rotors for ~$400.

I'm going to do the work myself. It will not take me 2 hours/axle. It will not take me 2 hours total. I have no idea what "diagnostic" you'd need to do on it besides measuring the pads. Yep. They're thin and need to be replaced.

In reply to Beer Baron :

It doesn't matter how long it would take you to do the work. Or how long it takes the mechanic to do the work. The book specifies the time. The mechanic gets paid book time no matter what.

And people wonder why they feel being fleeced by “mechanics”.

It is because some of them are.

In reply to Beer Baron :

Many shops now breakdown diagnostic labour and mechanical labour. 
 

What I would encourage you to think about is that a really good tech could probably beat your best time in which you could complete a proper pad and rotor replacement on your own car. So let's say for arguments sake the tech is 30% faster than you, and 100% faster than a first timer. Should that tech not be paid for their skill and not the time it takes to complete the work? 
 

As for parts (full disclosure I run a Napa store so I'm far from unbiased) but replacing rotors with pads means the likely hood of a comeback for noise Is greatly reduced. Comebacks are to be avoided at all cost, they are bad for business. Many customers would rather pay a few hundred dollars more and not have to loose their vehicle to another day and have to deal with the hassle and uncomfortableness of returning to the shop to complain about noise.

There is also an argument to be made that installing customer supplied parts is a liability concern but I'm not sure how that works outside the province I work in. 
 

As for alignment techs, it's hard to find a good one. Period. It's a niche skill in a lot of ways, and like many niche skills there are a lot of people who are passable, a few who are exceptional and some that are simply trying to get by. 

Beer Baron said:

DrBoost said:

What's the year, make, and model? Exactly what is the quoted work for? I'll look up standard labor times.

'03 Honda S2000.

Work is for front pad replacement at ~$700 and rear pads and rotors for ~$400.

I'm going to do the work myself. It will not take me 2 hours/axle. It will not take me 2 hours total. I have no idea what "diagnostic" you'd need to do on it besides measuring the pads. Yep. They're thin and need to be replaced.

Thanks, I was curious. According to Alldata (I don't have a Motor or Mitchell book in front of me, but they should be within a tenth of an hour per operation) pads are an hour per axle, replacing rotors are .8 per axle. So call it 3.5 hours X the labor rate. I don't know if there's an inspection added to that, or if they are flushing fluid, sounds like not. 
So probably 3.5 - 4 hours depending on inspection/diagnosis. Close to $500 in labor, depending on your area. The shop I left 8 years ago would have got $550 for the labor. $1100 sounds high, but not astronomical.  

Beer Baron said:

I have no idea what "diagnostic" you'd need to do on it besides measuring the pads. Yep. They're thin and need to be replaced.

Mic the rotors at a minimum of 3 spots per rotor, measure run-out, measure taper, look at the brake hoses. When the pads are off pull the boots back and check for leaks at the pistons.

Please video yourself doing your front and rear brakes in less than 2 hours. 2 hours from grabbing the keys from the counter, to putting the keys back on the counter. You can have the parts purchased already, but you have to spend at least 5 minutes at the 'parts counter' waiting to get them.

I'd say that I can swap pads and rotors on my vehicle in around 2 hours with my lift. I also anti sieze all my bolts and use a torque wrench when appropriate.

I can also say that I've spent 8+ hours doing pads and rotors on an old rusty car that the rotors fused to the center hub.  

An average of 3.5 hours seems like a safe way to hedge bets for a normal passenger car for a shop...

And any flat rate guy knows the frustration of digging through a nasty car searching for a wheel lock key before you can even do the brakes. Glove box, console, trunk, door pockets. It's got to be somewhere.

Hey Dr Boost.  Know how you feel in this thread? That's how the insurance people feel in your thread.  

I guess I'm lucky I live where I do and am in the business I'm in. I just ask my local body shop guys who they use for alignments or windshield replacements and use that place. Body shops don't want to use anyone for sublet work that causes a comeback or customer complaint. The local Mennonite shop that I got referred to did the alignment on my Shelby dropped Falcon and followed the "give me all the casterz" directions perfectly. 

I've had the other problem and have fired the garage closest to me. They do not overcharge. Instead, they fail to do things I've requested. Take a car in for annual inspection and ask them to flush the brakes with new fluid. They don't do it.  Find the a/c leak on the wife's Jetta and quote me to fix it. Didn't do it. All they want to do is inspections and brake jobs on my stuff, yet they'll spend three hours dicking around with a sunroof on someone else's vehicle. 

I finally seem to have found a shop that will do my requested work and take my money. On some of my weirder cars they ask me to get the parts. They leave the keys in the vehicle under the mat and mail me a bill several days later. 

I still do all my own work. Cars are so good these days, or maybe I'm just lucky, but I do regular maintenance, keep an eye on things, and I don't usually get surprises. But if I did, there are two local shops that are decent, honest and will install my parts if I want. I'd probably just let them make their markup, though, to avoid any hassles. One of them charges $80/hr or $85 if you bring your own parts, which I think is fair.

 
The last time I took a car in for alignment I'd done a bunch of front end work, lowered it on new struts, and was getting a full header back custom exhaust. I figured since it was in there for the exhaust I would get them to do the alignment, you know, do it right.  I eyeballed it to get it there , which turned out to be better than what he did with his fancy equipment. I complained, got my money back and fixed his mistakes. That was 2006, and maybe the last time I ever paid a shop to do any work. 
 

I totally understand why shops insist on doing rotors during a routine brake job, and it was likely brought on by customers. But how a routine brake job can cost a grand, and it's been that way for years, I don't understand. I mean, I can get my air conditioning compressor oil changed for that

$80/hour?  Man, most shops here are at least twice that and some of them (Porsche shops, not even the dealer) are three times that!  Where do you live?

docwyte said:

$80/hour?  Man, most shops here are at least twice that and some of them (Porsche shops, not even the dealer) are three times that!  Where do you live?

That's what I was thinking, I haven't seen a "normal" mechanic charge $80/hr in probably 15 years. 

Dealer and specialty shops here are in the $170-190/hr range. Porsche is more. 

A few shops I've used don't breakdown labor by the hour.  It's now labor by the job.  

Catalytic converter labor was $400 - no mention of amount of hours.  

On one hand, I will gladly take my vehicles to a specific shop in town because of the convenience of being able to take it over in the morning, have one of the delivery drivers bring me back and I can work for the day, and get dropped off later to pick it up. Its now something I don't have to do later since I value my limited free time to want to tackle other things (like never ending yard work, or content creation) and I am sure that some people (general public for example) would rather be able to attend dance recitals / little league games vs spending hours working on something covered in dirt, rust and grease in varying degrees. 

On the other hand, in some industries it is common to quote a ridiculous number because they don't want the job so why can't that also be a possibility in these cases? Small shop with limited space knows that on their one lift would need $Xmoney to make it worth losing the hoist for a Y hours vs flipping out 10 quick and easy (oil change/tire rotation) jobs they excel at and won't lead to possible additional parts problems / job complications. 

z31maniac said:Dealer and specialty shops here are in the $170-190/hr range. Porsche is more. 

That's nuts, though I bet the Porsche shops are equally crazy around here  

I'm a bit out of touch so I just asked apprentice boy, who's a couple years removed from an automotive apprenticeship, and still around the industry, and he says local shop rates are $80--$100. 
 

When I started my own automotive apprenticeship shop rate was $18/hr 

In reply to Sonic :

Huge difference here. The OP is complaining that the non-technician at a shop didn't know the incomplete lingo he used when wanting work done. Then the thread turned into people not liking rates for doing work.

But...

The technician is doing the work that was paid for. The customer might not like / understand the price, but there is an exchange of money for goods/services. 
I paid for a service every month and they are not providing the service I paid for. 
HUGE difference.
The insurance rates are crazy high (that's the main issue being discussed here) but I'm not disputing that. I moved to a disaster-prone area, I accept higher rates.

Keith Tanner said:

My local shop...

The fact that one of the owners of a well known aftermarket automotive business  has a local shop to work on his cars speaks volumes about the quality of that local shop, though. 
It also speaks volumes about what is worth doing yourself and what is worth having somebody with better skills/tools/more time to devote to the task to work on for you.

So this has me thinking. How hard is it to open a shop specializing in alignments?

Stampie said:

So this has me thinking. How hard is it to open a shop specializing in alignments?

If you want to see it go to "Alignment Guy" on Waldo road behind Sonnys. $100, walk ins only, non stop busy.