Refinishing Old Floors - How to fill gaps?

I knew Frenchy would jump back in...

"poly is infinitely better..."

There are a number of choices for finishes. Each has it's own characteristics. I have used most of them.  I prefer the natural and non toxic characteristics of shellac or wax. Four coats of poly is a serious plastic coating over the wood.

The OP's floor is 160 years old. If I were approached by a client asking about a choice of refinishing, plastic coating it would not be number one. 

With pine, patina and damage over time is a given. If you have a dog then repairing the finish becomes mandatory. The pine is relatively soft, and the plastic poly coating is harder, so it cracks when the dog's nail dig in. Shellac might also, but easier to touch up. Wax won't crack. Curtis is right that wax makes over coating with something else difficult.

FWIW,  I have many times used water based urethane over shellac for cabinetry, trim, and sometimes floors. On new wood, the water based urethane doesn't amber the wood , but the clear shellac does.  Verathane Diamond over Zinnser pre mixed shellac for example. Adhesion is not an issue.

frenchyd said:

In reply to coexist :

I’ve never used beeswax on a floor but I’ve heard of it. Heard it’s nice too.  Is that the same stuff you suggest?  

OSMO Hardwax is from Europe, may have some beeswax in it, but it's more like a hardening oil. You can put it on with a flat pad (as thin as possible), or using a steel trowel. Two very thin coats. Dries real hard. Most of the time I run a buffer with a white pad over it, but it's not mandatory.   Directions say it must be used on raw wood, but I have used it (as in farmhouse picture above) over old unknown finish, and over wood stains.

coexist said:

I knew Frenchy would jump back in...

"poly is infinitely better..."

There are a number of choices for finishes. Each has it's own characteristics. I have used most of them.  I prefer the natural and non toxic characteristics of shellac or wax. Four coats of poly is a serious plastic coating over the wood.

The OP's floor is 160 years old. If I were approached by a client asking about a choice of refinishing, plastic coating it would not be number one. 

With pine, patina and damage over time is a given. If you have a dog then repairing the finish becomes mandatory. The pine is relatively soft, and the plastic poly coating is harder, so it cracks when the dog's nail dig in. Shellac might also, but easier to touch up. Wax won't crack. Curtis is right that wax makes over coating with something else difficult.

FWIW,  I have many times used water based urethane over shellac for cabinetry, trim, and sometimes floors. On new wood, the water based urethane doesn't amber the wood , but the clear shellac does.  Verathane Diamond over Zinnser pre mixed shellac for example. Adhesion is not an issue.

 

 

About 10 years ago I put my first shellac floor down up in my Billiard room. It’s where I stored wood and a lot of tools. I worked in my boots  etc.  

i had a 150 pound St Bernard who refused to let me trim his nails.  He also was a lot of fun and liked to jump up on my chest, chase the ball and do other dog stuff.  For years I used that room made stuff dropped tools boards and stomped around in my dirty feet.  

A few years ago I advanced to the point where the room could be cleaned up and  started to be used.  The floors were in nice shape. You couldn’t see any scratch marks from my dogs I in trimmed nails. Nor my boots, or anything.  Not perfect but once I washed it, it took me 40 minutes to put another coat of shellac on and an hour for it to dry. 

coexist said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to coexist :

I’ve never used beeswax on a floor but I’ve heard of it. Heard it’s nice too.  Is that the same stuff you suggest?  

OSMO Hardwax is from Europe, may have some beeswax in it, but it's more like a hardening oil. You can put it on with a flat pad (as thin as possible), or using a steel trowel. Two very thin coats. Dries real hard. Most of the time I run a buffer with a white pad over it, but it's not mandatory.   Directions say it must be used on raw wood, but I have used it (as in farmhouse picture above) over old unknown finish, and over wood stains.

I've always wanted to try it on non-wear surfaces.  Many of my colleagues had recall issues with Osmo as hardwood flooring coating.  I then found this in a "positive" review of OSMO:  " Used Osmo Polyx oil on a floor – really good and hard wearing. I applied a second coat this year – two years after the original just to bring it back up. "  Maintenance every two years doesn't excite me.

I have nothing against wearable finishes, I just don't choose them for a floor.  I built a bamboo recipe box for my ex many years ago and finished it with Tung oil.  It still looks great, and if it gets scratched or abraded I just put some more Tung oil on a rag and wipe it on (which only happened once in 15 years when I dropped it).  I just don't think it is a viable finish for a floor any more than I think shoe polish is a substitute for Enamel, Lacquer, or Urethane on my fenders.  I don't want to re-apply shoe polish to my Chevy every time I take it out for a drive.  I want it to look like paint for 20 years.

frenchyd said:

coexist said:

I knew Frenchy would jump back in...

"poly is infinitely better..."

There are a number of choices for finishes. Each has it's own characteristics. I have used most of them.  I prefer the natural and non toxic characteristics of shellac or wax. Four coats of poly is a serious plastic coating over the wood.

The OP's floor is 160 years old. If I were approached by a client asking about a choice of refinishing, plastic coating it would not be number one. 

With pine, patina and damage over time is a given. If you have a dog then repairing the finish becomes mandatory. The pine is relatively soft, and the plastic poly coating is harder, so it cracks when the dog's nail dig in. Shellac might also, but easier to touch up. Wax won't crack. Curtis is right that wax makes over coating with something else difficult.

FWIW,  I have many times used water based urethane over shellac for cabinetry, trim, and sometimes floors. On new wood, the water based urethane doesn't amber the wood , but the clear shellac does.  Verathane Diamond over Zinnser pre mixed shellac for example. Adhesion is not an issue.

 

 

About 10 years ago I put my first shellac floor down up in my Billiard room. It’s where I stored wood and a lot of tools. I worked in my boots  etc.  

i had a 150 pound St Bernard who refused to let me trim his nails.  He also was a lot of fun and liked to jump up on my chest, chase the ball and do other dog stuff.  For years I used that room made stuff dropped tools boards and stomped around in my dirty feet.  

A few years ago I advanced to the point where the room could be cleaned up and  started to be used.  The floors were in nice shape. You couldn’t see any scratch marks from my dogs I in trimmed nails. Nor my boots, or anything.  Not perfect but once I washed it, it took me 40 minutes to put another coat of shellac on and an hour for it to dry. 

Listen, I'm not saying Shellac doesn't have its place, but its usefulness is overshadowed by its fragility.  Poly isn't perfect, but its utilitarian.  Henry Ford used lacquer on all of his cars.  It looked great for one week and then it was chalky and needed a coat of wax.  Since then we've come up with far better coatings.  Shellac is nostalgia and romantic.  Who wouldn't want insect feces on their floor, right?

A floor gets walked on and abused.  I just don't know why anyone would go the extra mile to go backwards to something inferior when better, cheaper, easier options exist.  Doing a floor with Shellac is like buying a Jag E-type as a daily driver.  It requires more maintenance, costs more to buy, and you're just going to beat on it in daily traffic.  Poly is a Toyota Camry.  It will last much longer, doesn't need as much maintenance, and you don't feel like you're flipping the middle finger toward Coventry when you accidentally ruin it with a wet shoe overnight beside the bed.  It's a friggin floor.  It's not a mahogany chaise, a Stradivarius violin, or a Jag E-type.  It's a pine subfloor in a farm house.  Sand it and then coat it with something that will make it last for 20 years.  That means poly.

I also have to take exception to the talk about toxicity.  Are you referring to the mixture of Ethanol, Methanol, and Acetone you inhale with Shellac, or the water vapor or inert oils you have with poly?  Just because Shellac comes from an insect's butt doesn't mean you can gargle with it, and just because poly is "plastic" doesn't mean it clubs baby seals every time you open the can.

A surprisingly non-biased and helpful article from a former competitor of mine.

Shellac described as:

• Weak protection against heat, water, solvents, and chemicals – this makes it less than ideal for tabletops or high use furniture pieces
• Weak resistance to wear

Poly described as:

• One of the most durable coatings – Polyurethanes within the varnish category are one of the most resistant to scratching , heat, alkyd, acids, and wear
• Beautiful appearance – Polyurethanes create one of the most attractive protective finishes after application

Curtis said:

frenchyd said:

coexist said:

I knew Frenchy would jump back in...

"poly is infinitely better..."

There are a number of choices for finishes. Each has it's own characteristics. I have used most of them.  I prefer the natural and non toxic characteristics of shellac or wax. Four coats of poly is a serious plastic coating over the wood.

The OP's floor is 160 years old. If I were approached by a client asking about a choice of refinishing, plastic coating it would not be number one. 

With pine, patina and damage over time is a given. If you have a dog then repairing the finish becomes mandatory. The pine is relatively soft, and the plastic poly coating is harder, so it cracks when the dog's nail dig in. Shellac might also, but easier to touch up. Wax won't crack. Curtis is right that wax makes over coating with something else difficult.

FWIW,  I have many times used water based urethane over shellac for cabinetry, trim, and sometimes floors. On new wood, the water based urethane doesn't amber the wood , but the clear shellac does.  Verathane Diamond over Zinnser pre mixed shellac for example. Adhesion is not an issue.

 

 

About 10 years ago I put my first shellac floor down up in my Billiard room. It’s where I stored wood and a lot of tools. I worked in my boots  etc.  

i had a 150 pound St Bernard who refused to let me trim his nails.  He also was a lot of fun and liked to jump up on my chest, chase the ball and do other dog stuff.  For years I used that room made stuff dropped tools boards and stomped around in my dirty feet.  

A few years ago I advanced to the point where the room could be cleaned up and  started to be used.  The floors were in nice shape. You couldn’t see any scratch marks from my dogs I in trimmed nails. Nor my boots, or anything.  Not perfect but once I washed it, it took me 40 minutes to put another coat of shellac on and an hour for it to dry. 

Listen, I'm not saying Shellac doesn't have its place, but its usefulness is overshadowed by its fragility.  Poly isn't perfect, but its utilitarian.  Henry Ford used lacquer on all of his cars.  It looked great for one week and then it was chalky and needed a coat of wax.  Since then we've come up with far better coatings.  Shellac is nostalgia and romantic.  Who wouldn't want insect feces on their floor, right?

A floor gets walked on and abused.  I just don't know why anyone would go the extra mile to go backwards to something inferior when better, cheaper, easier options exist.  Doing a floor with Shellac is like buying a Jag E-type as a daily driver.  It requires more maintenance, costs more to buy, and you're just going to beat on it in daily traffic.  Poly is a Toyota Camry.  It will last much longer, doesn't need as much maintenance, and you don't feel like you're flipping the middle finger toward Coventry when you accidentally ruin it with a wet shoe overnight beside the bed.  It's a friggin floor.  It's not a mahogany chaise, a Stradivarius violin, or a Jag E-type.  It's a pine subfloor in a farm house.  Sand it and then coat it with something that will make it last for 20 years.  That means poly.

I also have to take exception to the talk about toxicity.  Are you referring to the mixture of Ethanol, Methanol, and Acetone you inhale with Shellac, or the water vapor or inert oils you have with poly?  Just because Shellac comes from an insect's butt doesn't mean you can gargle with it, and just because poly is "plastic" doesn't mean it clubs baby seals every time you open the can.

 Curtis.

I do appreciate your loyalty to plastics. Errrr poly.  And yes  poly has its place.  In commercial applications where cost is everything and quality isn’t even a consideration I’m sure your poly is just fine.  

In addition applied by a professional it really does look like a clear sheet of plastic over a wood floor.  Most people like that look and are happy to pay you the thousands it costs to sand and finish the floors in their house.  

However there are those who seek more. They want the XKE, they want the Stradivarius, and they want the  fine  mahogany furniture.  

The wonderful part is shellac is so easy you can do a nice job for so much less money than the professional will want.  

I’m the worst person to paint and yet my whole house is filled with shellac coated wood.  Look as close as you want to those big virgin growth Timbers especially the ones with all that beautiful burl. You’ll find no runs no drips no errors!!  Done by me, that has to count for something.  

Safe!! You bet! The AMA approve the use of shellac coated pills.  Pretty good endorsement. I notice poly isn’t approved. ( sarcastic grin)  yes they denatured alcohol with 2% of something so you don’t buy it instead of going to your Lacquer store and paying the taxes on booze.  

As for durable. Let’s turn my 150 pound St Bernard  loose on that poly for a few years.  Then come over here and check out my floor. But yes tramping on the floor with my work boots and using it as a shop floor took its toll 

40 minutes of clean up and a quick recoat yielded a very nice finish again. With no sanding!      

XKE Stradivarius and fine mahogany furniture for less money?  Hhmmmm what a nice neighborhood to be in.  And for a much lower cost?

ps Home Depot stopped selling gallons of shellac when new management took over. I don’t know about Lowe’s, you’ll have to check them out.  But Menards carries it in gallons. And you can buy it from Amazon 

I'm tempted to change the title of this thread to "Let's all get really worked up about floor refinishing". 

In reply to EastCoastMojo :

We can pretty much get worked up over anything.  

In reply to spitfirebill :

Some more than others it appears. 

EastCoastMojo said:

I'm tempted to change the title of this thread to "Let's all get really worked up about floor refinishing". 

Seriously, I never knew people were so passionate about floor coatings 

Seriously though, this has actually been quite informative and is causing me to think a lot harder about this decision than I otherwise would have. Thanks to Curtis, Frenchy, and everyone else who has contributed. 

I think what I may end up doing is experimenting with a couple different products (assuming I can get small quantities for cheap enough) in the closet of the room I am currently working on, see what looks the best, and then weigh the pros and cons accordingly. 

Furious_E said:

EastCoastMojo said:

I'm tempted to change the title of this thread to "Let's all get really worked up about floor refinishing". 

Seriously, I never knew people were so passionate about floor coatings 

Seriously though, this has actually been quite informative and is causing me to think a lot harder about this decision than I otherwise would have. Thanks to Curtis, Frenchy, and everyone else who has contributed. 

I think what I may end up doing is experimenting with a couple different products (assuming I can get small quantities for cheap enough) in the closet of the room I am currently working on, see what looks the best, and then weigh the pros and cons accordingly. 

The easy button is Amazon prime. I know they sell Shellac in pints. Or you can buy the flakes. You just need denatured alcohol.  I didn’t check if they sold that but every hardware store has it. Just make sure it’s alcohol not thinner or anything else.   Oh and get a brush not one of those foam things that will dissolve.  

Frenchyd and I are about to launch into:

"Tastes great"
"Less filling"

I'm excited that a thread about floor coatings is more heated than one about society's ills. We're a weird bunch here 

Did some more reading on that Osmo Hardwax last night that coexist suggested and it's sounding like a very good option, seems to offer the right look and reparability that the more classic finishes do, but more durable and easier to maintain. Plus, it's low VOC and cures fairly quickly. Really liking what I hear and leaning hard in this direction at the moment.

There seem to be a lot of suggestions for Waterlox as well on the greater interwebs. Any thoughts on this product?

Another concern with poly that I keep coming across is chipping, blistering, and cracking due to the flex of the wood beneath the finish. My floors definitely have some flex to them, so it would suck to have areas flake off in a year or two and have to redo the whole damn floor again. 

The OSMO has a mineral spirits solvent, and I use a respirator when applying it. However , it evaporates overnight with very little off gassing beyond that.  I have also used it for finishing wood casing around doors and windows (brush on and rag off) as well.  A little goes a long way.

I should also mention I have used another similar product: Berger - Seidle floor oil. We installed a floor from this place and used the oil they recommended. I liked it as well, very "natural" feeling, applied with a steel trowel:

West Valley Hardwoods

{edit: you have to go to the B-S page and look at the "oil systems"}

I have made my own finishes using a mixture of linseed oil, turpentine and urethane.  Like it, but it off-gasses for a while.  The Waterlox (haven't used it) sounds like a tung oil base, and I suspect it would have a longer period of off gassing as well.

Be careful with the oily rags from any of these products, spontaneous combustion is a real thing. Worse with tung or linseed oils.

We built our house in '86, got the Certificate of Occupancy in January '87, and moved in on February 1,1987. Plywood floors. I spent the next couple years putting down wide pine flooring to fit the Early American character of our house. In doing so, I meticulously hand-planed each board to fit precisely with the adjacent board. I secured the boards to the joists below with old-school square cut nails, pre-drilled so the boards didn't split. I then stained the boards with Minwax Puritan Pine and hand-rubbed with Minwax Antique Oil (of which is partly linseed oil, and partly polyurethane). I hand-rubbed, and rubbed, and rubbed ... and then rubbed some more, the same way I finished the Early American furniture I made back in those days. It was extremely labor intensive. I couldn't have afforded to have it done commercially, even if I had been able to find someone to do the work the way I wanted it done. Thirty years later, it's still spectacular. Better today than then, and I'm proud of it. So my point? If you have something that was created way more than a century ago, try to give it a sympathetic restoration and then celebrate the original builder's work, gaps and all (because that's the way it was done in the old days), the way I hope the future inhabitants of my house will appreciate my own craftsmanship.

I have a poster of this and have hung it at jobsites to remember the old ways:

Gary said:

We built our house in '86, got the Certificate of Occupancy in January '87, and moved in on February 1,1987. Plywood floors. I spent the next couple years putting down wide pine flooring to fit the Early American character of our house. In doing so, I meticulously hand-planed each board to fit precisely with the adjacent board. I secured the boards to the joists below with old-school square cut nails, pre-drilled so the boards didn't split. I then stained the boards with Minwax Puritan Pine and hand-rubbed with Minwax Antique Oil (of which is partly linseed oil, and partly polyurethane). I hand-rubbed, and rubbed, and rubbed ... and then rubbed some more, the same way I finished the Early American furniture I made back in those days. It was extremely labor intensive. I couldn't have afforded to have it done commercially, even if I had been able to find someone to do the work the way I wanted it done. Thirty years later, it's still spectacular. Better today than then, and I'm proud of it. So my point? If you have something that was created way more than a century ago, try to give it a sympathetic restoration and then celebrate the original builder's work, gaps and all (because that's the way it was done in the old days), the way I hope the future inhabitants of my house will appreciate my own craftsmanship.

I’m doing the same thing except with old growth hardwood.  12”+ wide  except the center “picture frame” is 22” wide  burl!   Because I don’t want the fasteners to show I’m installing them in slightly enlarged holes from the bottom 6 inches on center . I’m edging the burl with a brass accent strip then 6”  Bloodwood and then another brass accent strip.   Inside and outside the picture frame will be the 12 inch wide hard maple.  The Maple is all early wood free of knots or other defects. 

The burl is  1 inch thick, 22 inches wide, and 10 feet long. The maple is up to 22 feet long.  I started out with rough sawn green wood and have carefully air dried everything for the last 14 years  to minimize stress. 

The fun part is straight edging everything along with jointing. Luckily my shop is 50 ft clear and all my equipment is on wheels.   I use conveyer rollers  as infeed and outfeed.  Sitting  on top of 6x6 saw horses made from Black Walnut.  And then shim so everything is exactly level and true.  I roll the 12 inch table saw in and have a 24 foot piece of 4x 4 aluminum angle as the guide.  

Once done I roll away the table saw and roll in the shaper.  

 I’ll finish my floor with Shellac since it’s so easy to put a nice finish down even without painting skills  

This is the last big project on this house. The 22’x34’  great room. All the other floors have been done in 5 inch wide hard maple planks.  (except  the master bedroom which is 5 inch wide Black walnut.  

The great thing is since I did this house piece by piece  I never moved out and thus the original certificate of occupancy remains intact 

In reply to frenchyd:

You have more energy than me!

In reply to Gary :

I don’t think so. You hand planed everything I used jointers shapers etc . Everything plugs into an outlet. I used electric drills and power everything. 

Ive always admired people who use hand or muscle powered equipment.  It’s so peaceful compared to my screaming machinery. 

I just feel like you’re the true artisan while I’m just an equipment operator. 

In reply to Curtis :

We just don’t see eye to eye. I use nothing but Lacquer on my cars. It dries much quicker than the two step stuff does which is important for a race car.  It blends easy so touch ups are localized. Important for a race car. 

If it caulks a little rubbing compound quickly brings it back. My MGTD was painted in the spring of 1974 and still shines no flaking but yes a few stone nicks in those decades of driving and vintage racing. However I can easily touch things up if I wanted to.   

By the 1980’s I was ready to try some of the new 2part paints. It darn near killed me because no one told me about its dangers.  For almost two decades when people got out a paint gun I ran like crazy.  

Then I touched up a  Ford Model A just in the  areas that the owner had polished down to the primer.  The rest of the original 1930 finish was fine.  I didn’t even need to sand. Just wiped it off with Lacquer thinner and sprayed paint.  A little color sanding and nobody could tell where I touched up the paint.   

I know some people want new new new! But there are reasons why the old is still around  

In reply to frenchyd :

I missed where painting cars came into this... Can you explain more? Is it just on wood trim, or like painting metal with lacquer? I'm confused but curious. 

So to update, I sanded everything to a 150 grit finish, applied Minwax pre-stain treatment, and a light coat of Minwax Golden Pecan stain. For the finish, I decided to go with Waterlox, based on advice gleaned from other corners of the web. I was thinking pretty hard about that Osmo X, until I looked at shipping times from across the pond and decided I was far too impatient to wait until the end of the month. 

Anyways, 3 coats of the Waterlox Original finish down so far and one to coat of the satin left to go tonight (the original is pretty glossy, but recommended for the base coats regardless of which finishing coat is used). I had to give it another light sanding by hand yesterday after the 2nd coat due to some roughness I was getting. I think this is due to the fact that I let the floor sit for a day between doing the cleanup and the first coat, during which time I suspect some dust was tracked back inside the room from surrounding areas. Regardless, I am super pleased with the results, floors look absolutely phenomenal. I'll post pics tomorrow after the final coat dries. 

Good call using the gloss for the base coats.  The sheen is accomplished by adding flattening agents to gloss finishes, so technically a gloss finish is stronger since its not "diluted" with insoluble solids.

Pics, man!