Another famous person........this one honestly affected real people a lot more (for better or worse) than some of the others who have recentley passed.
Former president of Ford Motor Company and a former "whiz kid".
His middle name was "Strange".
Another famous person........this one honestly affected real people a lot more (for better or worse) than some of the others who have recentley passed.
Former president of Ford Motor Company and a former "whiz kid".
His middle name was "Strange".
Quite a life he led. I highly recommend the documentary "Fog of War" where he looks back on his days at the DOD and his role in the early days of the Vietnam war. He had some regrets, that's for sure.
RIP, Mac.
I love the movie The Fog of War. I highly recommend it to anyone that likes history, war, and or cars. (but its mostly about the first two).
His policies got a lot of servicemen killed--without a doubt the worst SecDef this nation has ever had, in large part because he couldn't be bothered to understand how the military works.
Will, have you watched the documentary? My take on it was he was persued by JFK for the Sec Def position and JFK listened to what he had to say. LBJ, on the other had, seemed to never listen to what he had to say and often did the opposite. At least thats what I got out of the movie.
RossD wrote: Will, have you watched the documentary? My take on it was he was persued by JFK for the Sec Def position and JFK listened to what he had to say. LBJ, on the other had, seemed to never listen to what he had to say and often did the opposite. At least thats what I got out of the movie.
Too too true. LBJ used to brag that the Air Force couldn't bomb an out house without his permission. No way to run a war.
I haven't seen the documentary but I'll admit that Johnson was even worse than McNamara.
From the film, I'd say that LBJ and McNamara had conflicting views. The flim puts a lot of good perspective on things going back to the fire bombing of Japanese cities during WWII.
"Which saved GI's lives from a full on invasion, but pretty much would have made us war criminals if we'd lost the war." (Those are McNamara's thoughts from the film; just not verbatim)
His book In Retrospect was one that I kind of wrote off back when it was assigned in high school. I'll have to revisit it in the coming months to see if I can have a better appreciation of it now.
Anyone who thought the F-111 was a good idea for an airplane...
Appleseed, care to share you the rest of your comment? I suppose you'll blame Secretary of Defense Weinberger for the V-22 Osprey's developement problems? I suppose if you ordered dinner and didnt get what you wanted, it'd be your fault too?
Well apparently more than just McNamara wanted it around since the USAF had at least one of the many version of it around until 1998. Plus the aircraft will be in use in Australia until 2010.
McNamara did statistical analysis of allied bombings over Japan during WWII. I'm sure he had a reason for calling for an aircraft that would be able to satisfy both the USAF and Navy requirements.
RossD wrote: McNamara did statistical analysis of allied bombings over Japan during WWII. I'm sure he had a reason for calling for an aircraft that would be able to satisfy both the USAF and Navy requirements.
Of which it did neither. How many F-111s did the Navy order? Also, the RAAF is replacing them with F/A-18s...
The F-111 was an pretty spectacular failure.
Not failures:
The extremely specialized F-15 (a modified version of which replaced the F-111) and A-10.
The small, agile F-16.
Common thread behind them all? John Boyd. The anti-McNamara
Great book.
Actually, the F-111 was a good bomber. Do some research and you'll find it was an amazingly effective anti-tank weapon in the first Gulf War. The problem was that McNamara didn't understand why an Air Force bomber might not be a good Navy fighter. The fighter variant was hugely overweight, underpowered and unmaneuverable. It was worse than the F-4 it was supposed to replace and much, much worse than the F-14 that eventually got the job.
This was McNamara's problem. He was an accountant at heart and never understood that different services needed different tools for different jobs. See the saga of the M16 for a similar story: McNamara forced it on the Army & Marines not because it was better than the M-14 but because the Air Force was already buying it and he didn't want to pay for two different rifles.
I'll have to keep a lookout for Fog of War and In Retrospect. Thanks for the recommendations.
Oh, and on a more car related note: it was Robert McNamara, during his time with Ford, that decided the Thunderbird would sell better as a four-seater than a two-seater. He was right, of course, but...bastard.
Boeing's design for what would become the F-111 was a better plane. More range, more payload, etc... But Mcnamara rammed the General Dynamics plane down the Air Forces pipeline. They spent years and millions of dollars trying to fix the air intakes alone-in three separate revisions!
The book Boyd is awesome. If you have any interest in the origins of the F-15, F-16, or even the A-10, read it. Boyd's explanations of why the F-111 was such a piece of e36 m3 are spot on.
Will wrote: His policies got a lot of servicemen killed--without a doubt the worst SecDef this nation has ever had, in large part because he couldn't be bothered to understand how the military works.
Agreed. Anyone who knows what Vietnam was despises the man for what he did, and what he said.
foxtrapper wrote:Will wrote: His policies got a lot of servicemen killed--without a doubt the worst SecDef this nation has ever had, in large part because he couldn't be bothered to understand how the military works.Agreed. Anyone who knows what Vietnam was despises the man for what he did, and what he said.
The "I knew it was an unwinnable war" bit, I suppose?
captain_napalm wrote:foxtrapper wrote:The "I knew it was an unwinnable war" bit, I suppose?Will wrote: His policies got a lot of servicemen killed--without a doubt the worst SecDef this nation has ever had, in large part because he couldn't be bothered to understand how the military works.Agreed. Anyone who knows what Vietnam was despises the man for what he did, and what he said.
No. That was much later. I'm talking about what he did and what he said at the time. And it's not just one act or one sentence.
I like history. This stuff is still important. I'll have to check out Boyd's book. I'm guessing my view of McNamara is biased because the movie was pretty awe inspiring at times. You can hear Bob say he made mistakes, and wishes he could chang things. I'd like to get someones response from the movie that hates McNamara's actions/views/choices.
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