I am in the process of looking for a SCCA/NASA/ Chumpcar ready race car. It will mainly be for used for Chumpcar. From the research that I have done, I have found out that some of the early crap cans have wonky cages, that may not meet current rules either because of the design or build or being a retired Scca ect.. car. I found one car that has a bolt in autopower cage with the grade 8 bolts. Should I run away from Bolt-in cages?
For the widest possible use and best resale you want a fully SCCA complaint cage. Everyone accepts them and most other groups copy them directly. Read the rules for the type of car you are interested in and that will tell you what a "good" cage is comprised of.
In reply to Huckleberry: SCCA Bolt-In cage is not complaint with Chumpcar and would require a switch from 6 to 8 grade bolts. If you had a choice would your perfer a Bolt-in or Weld-in Autopower cage?
trigun7469 wrote: In reply to Huckleberry: SCCA Bolt-In cage is not complaint with Chumpcar and would require a switch from 6 to 8 grade bolts. If you had a choice would your perfer a Bolt-in or Weld-in Autopower cage?
I would never race W2W with a bolt-in cage unless it was a composite chassis and there was no other way to attach it. Frankly, I'm surprised SCCA still allows bolt-ins at all for anything but the slowest vintage classes.
Lemons doesn't allow bolt in cages at all. I'd be surprised if Chump does but I'm not familiar with their rules. I would run away from a bolt in from a personal perspective; I wouldn't want to race wheel to wheel in one either.
This is probably pretty close to what you are looking for and I'm highly negotiable on price. Might need better door bars for wheel to wheel racing.
Can the same be said about a bolt when the sleeves plug welded and welded around the sleeves?
From the Chump rule book: Optima Batteries ChumpCar World Series ® – 2016 Rules All significant, earth-shattering changes or additions are highlighted in RED. Rules Rev. 16-2.2 3. SAFETY 3.1. All required driver‟s safety equipment must be installed, implemented, and/or worn at all times while on the track. The participant agrees that the participant bears the ultimate responsibility at all times to ensure the proper installation and maintenance of participant‟s driver‟s safety equipment, and compliance with all ChumpCar rules, regulations, and agreements, including but not limited to those contained in the BCR. 3.2. Roll-cages and Supporting Structure: A quality, well-fabricated, full roll-cage is required. Roll-cages may be weld-in or bolt-in; roll-cage tubing joints may be welded or bolted, provided bolt-in methods meet conventional safety standards. Vehicles with a poorly built, improperly mounted, inadequately fitted or badly engineered roll-cage will NOT be allowed to compete.
Lemons Rules: 3.E ROLLCAGE REGULATIONS
3.E.1 General Rollbar and Structure. Professionally-made full rollcage required. A poorly built, improperly mounted, or badly engineered rollcage will keep you from racing: Don't show up with crap! Cages originally created as bolt-ins will not pass without extensive modifications; these mods usually cost more time and money than just starting with the right weld-in cage. At minimum, cage must include: Full front and rear hoop, appropriately braced to each other along the roofline (halo type and side/downbar type are also acceptable); two driver-side door bars (X-design is acceptable); appropriate main-hoop backstays with no bends, located as close to 45 degrees from horizontal as practical; one main-hoop diagonal; appropriate spreader plates and gussets; complete 360-degree welds at all joints, including all car-to-cage joints. Each major loadbearing member must be formed from a single, continuous tube. Shoulder-harness bars are necessary for proper shoulder-harness mounting in nearly all applications (the harness-to-bar attachment point must be between zero and 15 degrees lower than the harness's seat-entry point). Dash bars are very strongly encouraged. On all sides, all drivers' helmeted heads must be at least two inches inside the area enclosed by the cage. For simple illustrations
Hope this helps!
Rob R.
trigun7469 wrote: Can the same be said about a bolt when the sleeves plug welded and welded around the sleeves?
I think I know why you are asking this...
Generally, bolt in cages are not optimized. They are purposely made to fit in the car with minimal fabrication. This usually means that the cage is not near any of the interior body panels. There is hardly ever more than 1 door bar and usually no dash bar either.
It is Very much a pain in the rear to weld all of the joints on a "bolt in" cage. Adding the necessary bars to the doors and dash is also a pain.
The bottom line is that a properly welded in bolt in cage that has the necessary bars can be made safe. However, a professionally done cage that is welded into the car "onsite" by the professional is almost always going to be a better cage.
In other words, the effort to make a bolt in cage safe and meet the rules is about the same effort to just have a cage fabricated from scratch. The fabricated cage will be more comfortable and allow more room in the car.
I'll get you some pictures so you can post them up.
At least as far as Lemons goes, you'll need more than just the welded sleeves. They specifically say, in their rules, "Cages originally created as bolt-ins will not pass without extensive modifications; these mods usually cost more time and money than just starting with the right weld-in cage." (found here https://www.24hoursoflemons.com/prices-rules) You'd have to have pictures of the specific cage you're talking about, but generally bolt-in cages have a whole host of compromises to make them work as a bolt-in. The powers that be in Lemons have gotten more and more tough on modified bolt-in cages over the years.
Most bolt-in cages - in addition to the welded sleeves - will need spreader plates enlarged and welded in, additional door bars (even if they have two on both sides, they may be too close together or in the wrong spot), possibly modified or new rear downstays, etc. And even then you have less protection because the front down bars are going to be further back than a proper weld-in cage since they have to come down behind where the dash would be in a full interior car.
If you have a specific car in mind you could get loads of pics of the cage and run it by the tech team for the series you're considering. You can also post here for advice but the actual decision comes down to the series itself. My suggestion is to stick with weld in and weld together cages with no seams in the main tubes. But if you've already found something you really like, you might be able to make it work. Just know that sometimes you spend a boat load of money and get to a race and they won't let you race because of your cage. I've seen a few people cutting out and replacing cages at the track and have been part of one effort that involved rewelding everything at the track .. it wasn't a lot of fun.
I'm almost positive the FIA cage rules state "No welding od Bolt in cages."
As a matter of fact, here is the quote: "They must not be welded once assembled."
I've looked into this issue for a couple of potential crap-can racer projects. My conclusion was that it would be more cost and time effective to farm it out to race shop familiar with Lemons/Chumpcar rules. In other words, they know how to build a cost effective and safe cage to the letter of the rules, and will get it right on the first try. Also, the bolt in cages that I've seen don't really give me a safe feeling, especially when seen right next to a similar car with a well fabed cage.
If I had better Fabrication skills and resources my calculation could be different.
Owner of the car said: pre bent roll cage from S&W and fit it to the car myself. I was complemented at tech inspection every time we raced on the quality of the install and welding. I ponied up for the DOM tubing at 1 3/4" which is more than ChumpCar requires.
What do you guys think about this cage? Pics of the cage
S&W is capable of making a lemons / chump compliant cage kit but unless I'm blind I don't see any door bars on that cage. The pics are too dark and far away to see much cage detail so I can't comment on the welds or bar locations or bends. The rear backstays may be close to too far back for lemons - again I can't tell for sure but they shouldn't end beyond the rear edge of the tire. Hard to tell in the photos.
1 3/4 inch dom is good though.
This is on the Scirocco cage right? The Flickr page was sort of an album dump on my phone. Just making sure.
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