ransom
ransom GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/8/12 8:39 p.m.

Well, the garage/carport isn't as old as the house, but the roof is sheathed in 1x8 shiplap... Which is mostly fine, but there are a few bad boards...

It looks like due to how far out people are booked, we're going to end up doing this ourselves. We did get one quote, and they were going to put OSB right over all the shiplap. Which may be totally fine, but with 2x4 rafters on 24" centers, extra weight that can be avoided seems like it ought to be avoided. Though we did just tear four layers of asphalt shingles off.

The few inches where the roof runs up against a cement block parapet was so bad that it'll have to be resheathed and the rafters replaced. I was planning to cut away the last four feet of sheathing and replace that with plywood.

I was kind of hoping to replace the few bad boards otherwise, but I'm not really finding much in the way of 1x8 shiplap. Does anyone even use it anymore? It's not actually overlapped very much in its installation, so I'm tempted to just get 1x8s and rip them down to 1x7s and schwack them in place. If I had more time and a router table set up I'd just rabbet the 1x8s. I guess I could still do that, but it sounds like a pain in the butt. Even the ripping sounds like kind of a pain... This whole thing turned out to be a larger detour from the rest of the garage work than I was hoping...

Hal
Hal Dork
9/8/12 9:44 p.m.
ransom wrote: It's not actually overlapped very much in its installation, so I'm tempted to just get 1x8s and rip them down to 1x7s and schwack them in place.

Shouldn't be any problem with that.

ransom
ransom GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/8/12 10:02 p.m.

In reply to Hal:

I like that answer! Thanks!

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
9/8/12 10:09 p.m.

I agree.

Toyman01
Toyman01 GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/8/12 10:31 p.m.

Well, since SVreX already agreed, the rest of us are kind of redundant.

I still agree.

ransom
ransom GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/8/12 10:33 p.m.

Thanks, guys!

Once again, this forum sheds light on the stuff I'm pretty much in the dark about...

I was going to spend a bunch of time scratching my head on this one... And the rain's coming!

tr8todd
tr8todd Reader
9/9/12 5:58 a.m.

Unless it's visible from underneath, wouldn't it just be cheaper to double up on plywood sheathing. It comes in all different thicknesses so you can match the exact thickness of the wood you need to replace. Be very careful securing your roof jacks in that stuff. Whether it be shiplap or real old school mill run boards, nails can pull out of that old dried out wood very easily. Use long screws and try to hit the rafters. Almost killed myself and my wife because of this. My dad didn't listen to me when I told him to secure the jacks with screws. He put them in with good old roofing nails. I climbed up on the plank to get started when the whole thing let go. Luckily I was able to cling to the roof and yell lookout at the same time. My wife was underneath picking up shingles. She mostly got out of the way, but did get hit on the lower back with the roofing gun. After that I had my dad go home and I finished the job myself.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
9/9/12 8:39 a.m.

Plywood is not a great alternative for replacing shiplap in some cases.

If it is a large area, sure.

But if it is board by board, a laminated panel (plywood) ripped to a width of less than 7" does not have anywhere near the strength of a piece of dimensions lumber, especially on 24" centers.

It will make a soft spot in the sheathing.

Karl La Follette
Karl La Follette SuperDork
9/9/12 9:23 a.m.

We layed down 1 by 4 PT boards over our shingle roof , then layed on Metal roofing 5 V hat . At our house and our shop .

ransom
ransom GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/9/12 10:58 a.m.
tr8todd wrote: Be very careful securing your roof jacks in that stuff. Whether it be shiplap or real old school mill run boards, nails can pull out of that old dried out wood very easily. Use long screws and try to hit the rafters.

I'm using nails, but per the jacks' instructions, 20d nails, and into rafters every time. They're actually a giant pain to drive, and I have to use pilot holes or the nails buckle. (Seriously, and I'm reasonably competent with a hammer, though obviously no pro)

I'm actually a bit concerned about the applying-shingles part, because the trick I've read for when you're done with a given jack location is to slide a prybar under the shingles and hit that to drive the nails flush when you're done with them, but I don't think there's any way I'm going to flush those 20ds without a direct hit on the head...

Glad nobody was hurt badly in your incident. Roofing nails are a terrifying idea for supporting anything important.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
9/9/12 11:35 a.m.

I am not going to suggest you use the jacks in any way that is not in accordance with the manufacturer's specs. But 20d nails are really overkill, hard to pull out, and possibly capable of splitting your 2x4 rafters.

I haven't used jacks in decades. 2x4 toe boards are much more secure. On steep roofs, I shingle from the top down. Jacks are only useful for roofs of hard or composite materials, like slate, tile, or asbestos.

Are you doing your own shingling, or just the sheathing repair?

What's the pitch of your roof?

OHSCrifle
OHSCrifle GRM+ Memberand New Reader
9/9/12 1:29 p.m.

beware re: the section near your block wall.

you do not want to cut every sheathing board off at a single rafter (4' away). try to maintain some stagger in the new boards ends. without staggered joints, either plywood or 1x boards, it will have very little diaphragm strength.

I would remove bad boards and infill with plywood cut to sizes required, then screw 3/8 or 1/2” plywood over all of it.

ransom
ransom GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/9/12 3:01 p.m.
SVreX wrote: I am not going to suggest you use the jacks in any way that is not in accordance with the manufacturer's specs. But 20d nails are really overkill, hard to pull out, and possibly capable of splitting your 2x4 rafters.

I was wondering whether 16d might be plenty effective and a lot easier to deal with...

I haven't used jacks in decades. 2x4 toe boards are much more secure. On steep roofs, I shingle from the top down. Jacks are only useful for roofs of hard or composite materials, like slate, tile, or asbestos.

From the top down? I'm probably failing to make a simple leap, but how do you do that? Do you have to nail through the shingles above?

Similarly, to use toe boards (when not going top-down), do you screw them through the earlier rows of shingles and just fill in with roofing cement?

My girlfriend actually started by screwing some 2x4s down flat. I confess that it's my own distaste for working up there that made me want the jacks, which don't feel as solid, but I have a bigger fear of slipping over the 1 1/2" bump of the 2x4 than of having the 2x6 on the jacks fail. Think I might revert to using 2x4s for further up the roof, since that's just for steadiness and not a last-ditch not-going-over-the-edge countermeasure...

I'm sure that what I'm scared of and what's most dangerous could be different things...

Are you doing your own shingling, or just the sheathing repair?

Looks like we're doing everything. We have to replace the last rafters and joist, then the sheathing and back to the shingles... I'd love to turn my attention back to pouring footings and other stuff inside, but since we'll probably be done about the same time either way (roofers are booked way out), might as well save the money for the projects hopefully soon to be going on inside...

What's the pitch of your roof?

It's 6:12.

Datsun310Guy
Datsun310Guy UltraDork
9/9/12 3:11 p.m.
tr8todd wrote: ..........She mostly got out of the way, but did get hit on the lower back with the roofing gun......

dude, glad she's okay. if it hit her head......yikes!

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
9/9/12 8:58 p.m.

In reply to ransom:

I learned the carpentry trades in the North, however there are a few lessons I learned from Southerners.

One of them was how to shingle a roof from the top down. You never nail through, or walk on finished shingles. Here's the basic process (sorry, its gonna get a little wordy. Read carefully):

1- The shingle demo is done like normal. You rip off stuff as you can, standing on whatever you can nail through the shingles (since it doesn't matter if you damage the old shingles).

2- Do the deck repairs as needed.

3- Begin roof felt at the eave working up to the ridge, as normal. As you work your way up the roof, add toe boards as needed (usually every 3'-4'). The first toe board will be at the bottom (on top of the finished felt). These toe boards are continuous 2x4's, laid flat and nailed through the finished tar paper. Locals use 16d nails, and try to hit the rafters, but it doesn't matter much. The decking will hold them fine (because of the additional friction of the 2x4 laying flat). Then, add a 2nd 2x4 standing on edge (the same way they lay in the roof jacks), nailed to the top edge of the first (flat) 2x4. Get it? The complete toe board will be made of 2 separate 2x4's nailed together in an "L" shape. Run these toe boards continuously side to side, but DO NOT go all the way to the edge (rake). Keep about 1-1.5' away from the rake. Be close enough that you can comfortably reach the edge.

4- Continue laying felt and adding toe boards every 3-4' until you are high enough to felt all the way to the ridge.

5- Layout for shingling. Measure from the eave (like normal), but calculate the top edge of the shingle courses (every 5") all the way up the pitch of the roof, until you are above the highest toe board. This is why you didn't run your toe boards to the end. You can pull your tape measure right up the rake and mark all the way to the top, then pull a chalk line between your marks.

6- The FIRST course of shingles you will run will be above your highest toe board, abut 4' down from the ridge. It will be at your knee height, standing on the toe board. DO NOT nail this course like normal. Only nail each shingle at the very top edge (2 nails are enough).

7- The second course will be laid on top of the first, in standard shingle installation. Continue until you reach the ridge, and go ahead and put your ridge vents or ridge caps on while you are up there (if this is the 2nd side of the roof you are doing). You have now completed a swath of shingling at the top 4' or so of your roof, and you have never stepped on it.

8- Now you are ready to move downhill. Go down to the next lowest toe board (still there since you did the felt). Rip off the highest toe board, and clean things up. Begin shingling at your knees again, and repeat like step 6. The only trick here is to measure accurately down from where you left off (in 5" increments), and to count carefully. Every other course is staggered, so if all the even courses have a full tab at the right end, all the odd courses will have a half tab. If you count wrong, when you get back to the part you have already finished, you will have 2 courses in a row with the tabs in the same location, and it will leak.

9- When you get back to the top where you already finished, it is really easy to lift the shingles and tuck the lower course under them, because you nailed them at the top edge in step 6. After you finish tucking the last course in (under the first course), lift the tabs of the 2nd course (from step 6), and add the nails in course #1 that you left out in step 6. Now you have completed about 8' of width from the ridge down, without ever stepping on any of it.

10- Move downhill again, and repeat until you reach the eave. Because you installed toe boards all the way up when felting, you can easily climb up and down them, and there is always another one below you (for safety), in case you mis-step.

11- Since you put a toe board at the very bottom in step 3, you won't be able to finish the roof. The very last step is to work off a ladder, removing the bottom toe board and filling in the bottom course of shingles from the ladder.

Voila! You have shingled the ENTIRE roof without EVER stepping on the finished shingles or penetrating them with a nail, WAAY safer than roof jacks.

It's a bit slower, but MUCH safer (especially for amateurs). You will have 20 or 30 long 2x4's left over when you are done. You can build some shelving in the garage.

Hope that made sense.

Hocrest
Hocrest HalfDork
9/9/12 10:02 p.m.

This sounds crazy, but here it goes. Friday night SWMBO and I went to our favorite Mexican place for dinner. In the booth behind me I overheard a couple of guys talking about roofing and I heard the one guy trying to explain to the other how he sometimes works from top to bottom. Unfortunately do to background noise and paying attention to what she was saying across the table I couldn't hear the whole explanation.

Then I come here tonight and get the full explanation in a beautifully detailed write-up.

That's why this board is the best!!!

ransom
ransom GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/9/12 10:52 p.m.
SVreX wrote: Hope that made sense.

Crystal clear. Well explained! Thank you!

nocones
nocones GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/10/12 1:26 a.m.

Svrex do have any issues with the bottom rows getting wind damage or did I miss the part where you added nails to those rows? Otherwise sounds like a slick method. My house is only about 4/12 so pretty easy walk on so no real issues bottom down here.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
9/10/12 11:38 a.m.

The missing nails were added in step 9.

OHSCrifle
OHSCrifle GRM+ Memberand New Reader
9/10/12 11:57 a.m.

In reply to SVreX:

I've heard about this method, but always wondered if it was done one course at a time. Your narrative was awesome.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
9/10/12 12:03 p.m.

Yeah, it's technically still working from the bottom up, but 4' swaths at a time. Most people call it working "from the top down".

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