Russia to do to Engineering what India did to IT

Let's spin this the other way:

Our companies are using an emerging free market to save money and somehow it is socialism? That's capitalism at it's best! Those executives are entitled to the sweat of their brow! Survival of the fittest, baby. If our markets can't stand up to the global force, that's our own damn fault and we've done something wrong.

All I'm saying is that good ol' Alisa Zinov'yevna Rosenbaum wouldn't have left the motherland if this was happening back in her day.

Ok seriously. As a society, we can't keep expecting to pay low prices for everything and also expect to get paid major bucks for doing jobs that others will do for less money.

In the long run, it will start to even out as the standards of living go up in the emerging markets. It doesn't help anyone now, its true, but that's the way it goes.

alfadriver wrote: So the administration gets bashed if they work on workers/unions rights, but on the opposite side of the same coin, they also get bashed if companies farm out work based purely on cost, and ignoring current employees. I'm amazed you can do that in your head, hess.

Yes, they should be bashed for both things. You are presenting a false dichotomy where they must do one or the other of these things at their farthest extreme.

It is possible for the federal government to not kiss union ass, and at the exact same time, not encourage employers to ship jobs out of the country.

In reply to dinger:

Some times the haters come up with some doozies.

So- don't protect the workers, but companies should not be able to use lowest cost suppliers in the global economy. Great....

Xceler8x wrote: Read this book - Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work.

Starred Review from Amazon said: Philosopher and motorcycle repair-shop owner Crawford extols the value of making and fixing things in this masterful paean to what he calls manual competence, the ability to work with one's hands. According to the author, our alienation from how our possessions are made and how they work takes many forms: the decline of shop class, the design of goods whose workings cannot be accessed by users (such as recent Mercedes models built without oil dipsticks) and the general disdain with which we regard the trades in our emerging information economy. Unlike today's knowledge worker, whose work is often so abstract that standards of excellence cannot exist in many fields (consider corporate executives awarded bonuses as their companies sink into bankruptcy), the person who works with his or her hands submits to standards inherent in the work itself: the lights either turn on or they don't, the toilet flushes or it doesn't, the motorcycle roars or sputters. With wit and humor, the author deftly mixes the details of his own experience as a tradesman and then proprietor of a motorcycle repair shop with more philosophical considerations.

This book addresses subjects like out-sourcing and the ability to support yourself with jobs that society tends to devalue like plumbing and landscaping. Also, I think what Hess is trying to say is that we need to get back to taking care of our own. I think his villains are misplaced but that's a matter of opinion. To elaborate - I think his point is that the U.S. has sold jobs, materials, and knowledge over seas. Each sale makes us poorer as a nation. To regain, and/or retain, our status as a leading Nation we need to reinvest in ourselves. Whether that's O's fault or the CEO's lead by the nose via MBA's to sell our jobs to poorer countries in the pursuit of a nickle rise in stock prices. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you Hess.

If Hess was really saying we should be looking out for ourselves, I would agree to that.

But, no- it's fully a floundering post that is anti Obama.

Every move that a US company makes to outsourse jobs is to lower costs, which we say is bad for us, but nobody defends a union to protet us.

So which is it? A or B?

There is nothing wrong with companies drawing from a global talent pool. The problem arises when the government encourages it.

dinger wrote: There is nothing wrong with companies drawing from a global talent pool. The problem arises when the government encourages it.

Where are they doing that??? In a way that is UNIQUE to the current administration??

Oh, if it's ok for companies to draw from a global talent pool, then why is it bad if a government encourages it? I don't get that- it seems as if it's a great win for the free marketeers.

Again, put an watermelon and a bread knife together, call it a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Barely related, but not really.

alfadriver wrote: Corporate socialism would be if boing allowed their engineers to form a union and collectively bargin for their benefits. Not farming stuff out to the cheapest bidder.

Actually the more common meaning of corporate socialism refers to the socialisation of losses and privatisation of gains. The typical example being certain large banks and an insurance black hole being bailed out by the taxpayer with minimal or no oversight and now doing business knowing that the next time they blow up the economy, the government is going to bail them out with taxpayer money again.

alfadriver wrote:

dinger wrote: There is nothing wrong with companies drawing from a global talent pool. The problem arises when the government encourages it.

Where are they doing that??? In a way that is UNIQUE to the current administration?? Oh, if it's ok for companies to draw from a global talent pool, then why is it bad if a government encourages it? I don't get that- it seems as if it's a great win for the free marketeers. Again, put an watermelon and a bread knife together, call it a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Barely related, but not really.

It's bad if the government encourages it because the job our Federal government is to look out for the best interests of the citizens of the USA, not to provide employment for the citizens of Russia.

And once again, this is not a situation with only two choices: the government making people join unions vs. shipping out all jobs to foreign countries. A watermelon and a bread knife, indeed.

In reply to dinger:

I believe what Alfadriver is saying is that this is not unique to the current administration. It has been done before.

It doesn't matter who has done or is currently doing it. It doesn't make it right. So yes, the Obama administration is wrong in supporting this, just as all administrations before it supporting this idea were wrong.

Doctor + price fixing = hysterical. It should read govt + insurance = price fixing. Look at the % of medicare dollars that are money to doctors, it's a much smaller number than that to insurance companies, pharma, hospitals, etc... Sorry for the divergence from outsourcing- yep it sucks but if you ran a company, what would you do to remain profitable?

dinger wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

dinger wrote: There is nothing wrong with companies drawing from a global talent pool. The problem arises when the government encourages it.

Where are they doing that??? In a way that is UNIQUE to the current administration?? Oh, if it's ok for companies to draw from a global talent pool, then why is it bad if a government encourages it? I don't get that- it seems as if it's a great win for the free marketeers. Again, put an watermelon and a bread knife together, call it a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Barely related, but not really.

It's bad if the government encourages it because the job our Federal government is to look out for the best interests of the citizens of the USA, not to provide employment for the citizens of Russia. And once again, this is not a situation with only two choices: the government making people join unions vs. shipping out all jobs to foreign countries. A watermelon and a bread knife, indeed.

Sooo... companies should be looking at a global talent pool, but the government should say that they shouldn't be doing it?

Do as i say, but not as i do?

My head hurts.

cardiacdog wrote: Doctor + price fixing = hysterical. It should read govt + insurance = price fixing. Look at the % of medicare dollars that are money to doctors, it's a much smaller number than that to insurance companies, pharma, hospitals, etc... Sorry for the divergence from outsourcing- yep it sucks but if you ran a company, what would you do to remain profitable?

Ooooo... this discussion again. That whole situation is a vicious cycle brought on by at least 3 entities, and nobody is more at fault than the others, though the chicken did hatch from an egg at some point.

Neat fact about Health "Care" "Reform:" The government IS fixing price... after a fashion. Not just in medicare either. It's now polluted your private health insurance in an attempt to turn private insurance companies into non-profit organizations. New Kapitalism, Comrade!

alfadriver wrote: ....If Hess was really saying we should be looking out for ourselves, I would agree to that. But, no- it's fully a floundering post that is anti Obama.....

No, no, no. What the H is saying is that he believes companies should not be allowed to do whatever they want (free market out sourcing) and should be controlled and regulated by the government against their own self interest... you know... because he is against big government... and... and... Obama's making them outsource... because he is forcing his socialist free market thinking... error.... error... Glen Beck, save me with your magic chalkboard...

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Sooo... companies should be looking at a global talent pool, but the government should say that they shouldn't be doing it? Do as i say, but not as i do? My head hurts.

The global talent pool is much larger and far cheaper than what is available in the US. It makes economic sense to go where costs are lower.

The government can say what it wants, but the real question is "What is it doing about it?". A part of the solution is to offer an environment that encourages businesses to locate here and use our domestic resources. Considering our global ranking for corporate tax rates, we have a lot of room for improvement.

oldsaw wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Sooo... companies should be looking at a global talent pool, but the government should say that they shouldn't be doing it? Do as i say, but not as i do? My head hurts.

The global talent pool is much larger and far cheaper than what is available in the US. It makes economic sense to go where costs are lower. The government can say what it wants, but the real question is "What is it doing about it?". A part of the solution is to offer an environment that encourages businesses to locate here and use our domestic resources. Considering our global ranking for corporate tax rates, we have a lot of room for improvement.

Yeah, i understand, i was just being a bit of a jackass because i wasn't real sure what Dinger was wanting.

Funny you mention the corporate tax rates.... local forum has been on another rant against the rich, and they're complaining that corporate tax rates aren't HIGH enough. Oh. Cool. Great way to force businesses out.

Dr. Hess wrote: http://www.news.com.au/technology/russia-taps-geek-power-for-growth/story-e6frfrnr-1226020670693 So, The O's great U.S. Economy recover plan, set up by The O's Vice President, Joe Foot-in-Mouth Biden, is to export our engineering jobs to Russia, thus wiping out the next rung up in the middle class. Just think, The O and the Russians can do to American Engineering (and Engineers) what India has done to American Information Technology and the workers that used to be in that field. Yup, that's a fantastic play. Think of all the cheap engineering work we'll get. Yeah. Fantastic. And the U.S. Engineering people? Well, we're a service economy now, so they can just flip burgers next to the IT workers. Note the article mentions "Russian parts and R&D services," thus putting the final nail in our manufacturing and product development industry. Meanwhile, talking out the other side of his mouth, The O wants more engineering students and more math and science in school. For what? Is this the change you voted for? This rant has been brought to you by Dr.Hess, the letters F and U and the number 13.

berkeley it, I'm going to retire and start a business doing grading work. They can't ship that overseas.

Xceler8x wrote: Read this book - Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work.

you beat me to it. a very interesting and entertaining read. combine it with "The Millionaire Next Door" and you're on to something.

killerkane wrote: ...the problem is that the CEO's of large corporations want to make a few extra million by raising their shareholders profits by a few points...

That's right, we are all evil scum and we will destroy you!

Pinchvalve
Cheese Eating Oxymoron

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Sooo... companies should be looking at a global talent pool, but the government should say that they shouldn't be doing it? Do as i say, but not as i do? My head hurts.

Companies should be able to look at a global talent pool if they feel that they can get a better product at a lower cost. The US government shouldn't be telling them not to, they should be creating an environment where companies want to employ US citizens and resources. And they especially shouldn't be assisting them in moving operations to other countries.

Is that more clear?

How can one not blame The One when his Vice President goes to a foreign country and does all he can to outsource yet one more American industry? Oh, no, it's not Obama's fault. He's really trying to save American jobs by promoting the outsourcing of the Engineering field to Russia. Duh.

Some of you Corporatists need to get your head out of your back side. You've obviously never had your industry outsourced. Let's take the above example: Boeing outsources engineering for the Jumbo 7x7 to the Russians. I'm sure the Russians have competent engineers. Certainly, their weapon systems are simple, cheap to make, effective and robust. Now, instead of paying a U.S. engineer 100K/yr for that 7x7, they pay the Russian 20K/yr. How much did the US engineer get? About half that wage. The rest went to taxes of various types, including taxes to buy the 7x7s that will be made from Boeing by the various government agencies that think they need a 7x7. How much did that Russian pay in U.S. taxes? How much Social Security tax did that Russian pay to help our SS system out?

Yeah, guys, I'm saying LETS TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN. I'd like to see:

No tax deduction (expense) for any labor performed outside of the U.S. 100% tax penalty for all labor performed outside of the U.S. Hire an engineer for 20K, well, add 20K for taxes to feed into the SS and FICA systems.

Unions are a separate issue. As we have previously discussed, they exist for the sake of the union and no longer for the worker. They days of people dieing so sailors can have canned milk on board ships are long over. Yes, that happened. Look it up.

If Boeing wants to hire Russian engineers and Indian IT, the rest of us should not be subsidizing that. Boeing should pay a penalty. Hey, if we want to outsource something, let's outsource the top level of our corporate management. I bet we can find someone named Gupta or (now) Boris to be CEO of Boeing for <$100K/yr. Think of the savings.

dinger wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Sooo... companies should be looking at a global talent pool, but the government should say that they shouldn't be doing it? Do as i say, but not as i do? My head hurts.

Companies should be able to look at a global talent pool if they feel that they can get a better product at a lower cost. The US government shouldn't be telling them not to, they should be creating an environment where companies want to employ US citizens and resources. And they especially shouldn't be assisting them in moving operations to other countries. Is that more clear?

Ah hah... that makes more sense now, and is in-line with my own beliefs. I may have missed where you stated what the government SHOULD be doing earlier. If so, i apologize.

killerkane wrote: P.S. I am not much of a supporter of President Obama however, it is definitely not accurate to blame him for all of the countries problems.

don't see much difference in blaming the Prez for all our current problems .... assuming it was ok to blame Bush for things like Katrina and other equally stupid things/attitudes

there I guess this puts me solidly in one camp or the other .....

No, no, no... For once Hess has totally missed the obvious:

We now know the Dem's money doesn't come from American unions anymore. It comes from the Russian mob.

From what I've seen thus far in my dealings with Russian trained engineers over the years, I have genuine concerns about their overall competence.

wbjones wrote:

killerkane wrote: P.S. I am not much of a supporter of President Obama however, it is definitely not accurate to blame him for all of the countries problems.

don't see much difference in blaming the Prez for all our current problems .... assuming it was ok to blame Bush for things like Katrina and other equally stupid things/attitudes there I guess this puts me solidly in one camp or the other .....

And when did I do that? Let me know when you figure it out...I'd like to know as well.