In reply to nocones :
I'm saying it was a jackleg solution.
I've done it too.
In reply to nocones :
I'm saying it was a jackleg solution.
I've done it too.
Looks like 50A RV shore power outlets are typically 240v, however most RVs don't use 240v.
So, 240v comes into the RV panel, but is used as 2 separate 110v legs.
If you use a 30A adapter into a 50A outlet, you can't get 240v (but you may not need it). You will only be running the RV on a single 110v leg.
In reply to SV reX :
Ok serious question. I wired up the 220v welder outlets in my garage with the 3rd center plug using the nuetral. The ground I attached to the conduit box / outlet baseplate. As the building is an Accessory structure it's panel is grounded so the nuetral bar is connected to ground. Electrically I believe it's equivalent but is the "correct" way to not hook up the nuetral and only use the uninsulated ground wire on the 3rd center prong.
In reply to nocones :
3 prong plug, or 4?
Im assuming when you say you hooked up "using the neutral"), you mean using the white wire?
A 3 wire 240v outlet typically carries 1 hot leg on the black wire, 1 hot leg on the white wire, and center pin is ground.
A 4 wire 240v outlet typically carries 1 hot leg on the black wire, 1 hot leg on the red wire, neutral on the white wire, and center pin is ground.
Mine are 3 prong
I have 1 hot leg red, 1 hot leg black both connected to the vertical prongs.
White goes to my Nuetral bus bar and is connected to the center D shaped prong.
Bare copper goes to the outlet box and is connected to the ground bar.
My panel nuetral is grounded with a ground rod because it's a accessory structure not a floating sub panel.
I can change it but I believe it's electrically identical. But if it's wrong I will check NEC and change it if needed. They work fine and my welder seems happy.
In reply to nocones :
So, you've got 4 wires with a 3 prong plug.
It's electrically identical. The bare wire is a redundancy.
SV reX said:Looks like 50A RV shore power outlets are typically 240v, however most RVs don't use 240v.
So, 240v comes into the RV panel, but is used as 2 separate 110v legs.
If you use a 30A adapter into a 50A outlet, you can't get 240v (but you may not need it). You will only be running the RV on a single 110v leg.
Yeah, that's what I was worried about. I agree that you can plug a 30A 120v into a 50A 120v (obviously) but the 30A adapters for RVs plug into a 50A 240v, so they're just pulling off one leg. I thought that was a no-no. I guess if it's a 2-throw breaker and you pull the tie bar it could work, right?
Also agreed that nothing in an RV is 240v... at least not that I know of. Some of the RV washer/dryer combos kinda use 240v, but it technically uses one 120v leg for the heater and the other 120 leg for the motor just like a residential dryer. None of the internal components use both legs. But the only reason an RV uses a 240v supply is to get another 120v leg to share the load instead of trying to use a 6-3 SJ cord to get enough amperage on a single leg.
Jesse Ransom said:I've searched a bit and I know there's been varying discussion, but I can't even find the GRM article on living with an older RV. I found a thread, but it was more on shopping tips for the whole thing, when my question is...
I've got some probably silly ideas about building a flatbed-size camper with some other functionality, and I'm wondering where to look to learn about how all the aforementioned vehicles handle bathroom and kitchen stuff. Toilets, showers, water, cooktops, refrigeration.
Seems like boats and RVs would have some overlapping concerns, but also some differences (e.g. I don't know how many marinas have the same sorts of hookups that an RV might use at a campground). And I'm hoping for an overview that's broad enough to revisit why RVs use RV stuff and boats use boat stuff, and in what circumstances that might be up for consideration.
E.g. I don't know anything about either, really, but I have the impression that RVs pretty much always have a clean water tank and "used" water tanks, with I believe separation between sink water and toilet output? While boats I think more often use a composting toilet? Or other options?
I guess, what are the core basic things to know about the options available for having a self-contained camper if you were going to start from relative scratch?
If you end up going the cassette/porta potty route, be aware that it smells terrible, doesn't hold much, and you'll be in very close proximity to poo every time you dump. If you go with holding tanks, they should be sized for the number of people just like a water heater in your home. My current RV has 35gal fresh, 35 gallon gray, and 24 gallon black (I think that's right). I typically RV alone and I do all of my "business" except showering in the RV and the grey/black capacity easily lasts me a couple weeks.
Water heaters if you do that route are typically 6 gallon or 10 gallon. Don't stress about how small they are. They will heat water in about 2 minutes.
Water plumbing used to be polybutylene (the grey stuff) but it's stiff and after several years can get brittle. The hot ticket now is PEX (crosslinked polyethylene) which has the added benefit of sharkbite fittings if you wish. Great for repairs, changes, and assembling in tight spots. 12v distribution is pretty simple. You can just use stranded wire like you would in a car. 120v distribution is where you should really listen to RVIA. The ones I've seen look like THHN stranded but it has much thicker insulation on it. I don't know the spec. If you do propane, I can't speak intelligently other than what I've observed. My RV uses a hose from the tanks down to a black steel sch 40 pipe running the length of the frame. It branches off to flares and malleable copper tube to the appliances.
If you're doing more than simple plumbing, you'll want a proper RV water pump. It incorporates a one-way valve so you can hook to city water and not overflow your fresh tank. Let me see if I can find a picture I did a while back.
Ok, couldn't find it, but here is something I whipped up. Typical RV water system. As you can see, you can fill the tank and use the pump, or hook a potable water hose to the city water inlet and bypass the pump.
the_machina said:
Boats will have a clean water tank (and hopefully a water-making system), a grey-water tank, a black water tank, and optionally an offshore-diverter valve where if you're far enough offshore you can have used water flow untreated overboard (kinda gross, but the ocean is a big place and fish already poop in it). When you get to harbor, you can have your grey and black tanks pumped out.
The only places in the US that require Graywater tanks on boats are a few inland lakes. The rest of the US does not care about washing up or shower water. IN Europe it is really only the Med Countries that care. So not too many boats, unless from European manufactorers have gray water tanks.
The 50 v 30a technical discussion is interesting. But 50a service isn't nearly as common as 30 is. So by going 50, you limit your camping choices.
In reply to alfadriver :
From a LOT of traveling for work, I'd feel comfortable saying its probably a fairly even 3 way split between 50A only, all three like was shown early in thread, and 30A (no 50 A plug). But most without the 50, usually have a box with a 30 and a 15/20, so a lot of folks make up an adapter to plug their 50A cord/plug in, that splits to plug into both. But that only helps if they are on separate legs.
Add to the fact that all of them stand a pretty good chance of being wired incorrectly by the camp, well it gets very complicated to the non electrically inclined. I know guys that break out their meter before ever plugging in. Also know folks that didn't and had problems! So the theory discussions aren't just interesting.
On the electric side, probably the thing I most wish our RV had is some kind of inverter to run at least basic 120v stuff off of the house batteries. Being able to charge laptops and stuff at night would be helpful, and it'd also be nice to be able to watch TV or use a coffee maker or other small stuff like that without needing to run the generator.
This is an awesome bunch of info; many thanks to everyone!
I'm once again six projects ahead of myself, but this takes a lot of the mystery out of the workings of a camper.
I was just revisiting Tom's slide-in adventure and marveling at how badly built stuff is and thinking whatever the form factor, maybe it could be done better from scratch?
Or maybe 90% of the horrors could be avoided by finding something that's not rotten and building an aluminum or stainless cap that just covers the roof and its joints to the walls... But that's less interesting.
In reply to Jesse Ransom :
Just wait until you look into building styles. The ideas on materials is pretty enormous. High bond tape with stressed Al skin over an Al frame, foam plus fiberglass, or old school stick.
In reply to alfadriver :
I boxed a 6x12 trailer once with polyiso 2" foam that I skinned the outside with FRP and the inside with luan using contact cement. That thing was RIGID. The studs were aluminum I-beam and slid down in the stake pockets. Two people could lift it off the trailer and carry it away. There was some groaning and chiropractor visits involved, but sub-200 lbs.
I will also say that 50A is not really needed unless you're building something big. The biggest draw will likely be the fridge or a TV aside from A/C. Where you get into needing 50A is when you have two A/C units on the roof plus a washer/dryer.
The 30A service in my trailer that stays at the lake runs a residential full size fridge, a washing machine, a TV with a 300w stereo, (although never at full volume) plus the electric water heater. I can even use the coffee pot and/or toaster. The microwave and water heater are on the same circuit, so there is a switch for either/or so they don't draw at the same time, but plenty of RVs don't have that. The previous RV I had there you could run everything at once. I tripped the main breaker at the campground a couple times but not because I was drawing more than 30A, it was likely because of the 250' of cable between me and the breaker box allowing the voltage to drop and things to overamp.
Also, an interesting thing that was turned up a thread I was doing about a year ago.... do the research on which fridge setup uses the least energy. I'm looking for the link but not finding it. There was a video that compared some fridges side by side. All the same brand of marine fridge but one was 12v compressor and one was 120v compressor running off the same type of batteries through an inverter. IIRC, the 120v fridge on the inverter won by a notable margin.
RV fridges use absorption instead of compressors. It gently heats an ammonia refrigerant which evaporates and pulls heat away from the inside. Kinda like a compressor setup but the initial energy comes from a little heat instead of pressure. They can therefore be operated on 12, 120, or propane depending on which RV fridge you get. When running on propane, the only juice they take is for the little control board to tell it when to fire up. The downsides are that they are expensive and not quite as good at getting super cold. The freezer will freeze things, but it will be 25 degrees instead of 5 degrees like a compressor fridge. Not good for long-term meat storage, and ice cream will be very soft. on the other hand, you can buy a dorm fridge for $50 used and an inverter for $100. If you mind your electrons and watts what you're doing (see what I did there?) you can run a residential fridge for a while on an inverter. That might be a plan if you are going to be driving for a couple hours and then plugging in, but maybe not that great for boondocking. Boondocking, I would do propane. You could also do a Yeti if you don't mind breaking camp every few days to go get ice.
This is good stuff...
I don't know thoroughly what our use case is, but I suspect it's mirrored by one of the daydreams which started the train of thought, which was basically attempting to put a tiny English pub on the back of a Unimog. The Unimog suggests serious boondocking, but ignore it. I'm just fascinated with them, and I don't expect we'll try to get all that remote, or for that matter camp for very long. Given the rest of our schedule, it's likely we could do a lot of the scale of trips we do with a cooler, but I prefer the idea that it could work for a bit longer if we got the chance and had the inclination.
I don't know what the chassis will end up being, but I've been trying to figure out how to have all three of my favorite truck utilities in one, with a certain amount of jiggery-pokery: A utility, pickup-ish bed, ideally with dump facility. An enclosed box for use van-style (motorcycles or bicycles and gear, locked storage, etc), and a camper of some type. Ideally the camper could sit on the bed similar to a slide-in (effectively a slide-in that doesn't need to get past the bed sides or wheelwells), and the van box would just complete the box started by the bed sides. It doesn't avoid having at least one big box stored at the house, and possibly two when in pickup mode, but I'm frustrated by all the tradeoffs in having a van or a pickup, and the camper/RV thing is just a fascinating possibility. I'm imagining taking advantage of the lower ride height of a van (why do pickups of the same basic chassis get set up so tall?), and the first layer would be a flatbed but with a channel down the middle for moto use; if we're very clever indeed maybe the same panel could be both a ramp for loading motos into that channel and a channel cover for use as a flatbed.
For most of my use, a Unimog would be 10% as functional as a low pickup or van cab/chassis. I mean... motorcycles in a Unimog? I think we're really talking liftgate at that point. And it's an expensive answer to the wrong question. But I do want something neat, and I think that means another thread...
In reply to Jesse Ransom :
For a while, I thought about making a slide in for our car trailer. But we found one that fits our needs.
There are vlogs of people doing their own slide in camper. To send you further down a rabbit hole, lol.
In reply to alfadriver :
It's always a risk, and I asked for it... Got any links?
In reply to Jesse Ransom :
Not right now, maybe when we get back home. As an alternative, you can try searching diy x camper.
In reply to alfadriver :
I did a super-quick search and got bogged down in YT dregs... I'll try again later and I'm sure I'll find stuff. If you happen to get the chance and recall any you particularly liked, that would be awesome, but no worries if that's not something you have lying around in handy bookmarks.
In reply to Jesse Ransom :
Not on my phone...
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