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Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
3/14/10 10:27 a.m.

Since this thread has been well and truly derailed, might as well jump in feet first.

Your question is invalid since you don't use nukes except against large immoveable targets. That's why they are generally referred to as 'strategic' weapons. Iraq and Afghanistan are not wars in the conventional nation-state sense. They are guerrilla wars.

From http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/568246/strategic-weapons-system

any weapons system designed to strike an enemy at the source of his military, economic, or political power. In practice, this means destroying a nation’s cities, factories, military bases, transportation and communications infrastructure, and seat of government. Strategic weapons systems use atomic or thermonuclear devices, because only these weapons have sufficient explosive power to destroy, with relative ease and quickness, the entire war-making capability of a large nation.

Not a peep about guerrilla warfare in there.

That's where 'tactical' weapons come in.

From http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/580079/tactical-weapons-system

system integrating tactical weapons with electronic equipment for target acquisition, aiming, or fire control or a combination of such purposes. Tactical weapons are designed for offensive or defensive use at relatively short range with relatively immediate consequences. They include weapons used for antitank assault, antiaircraft defense, battlefield support, aerial combat, or naval combat.

Unlike strategic weapons systems, which are operated by only a handful of nations, tactical weapons systems are ubiquitous: in one version or another they are manufactured by at least 15 countries, and in one form or another they occur in virtually every country that has an army, navy, air force, or guerrilla or terrorist organization of any consequence. They are generally classified according to their point of launching (surface or air) and their target location (also surface or air).

BTW, WWII was ended by nukes, yes. But that was only the period ending a very long sentence. What oldsaw is referring to was the 'will to win' which came from the grassroots of the US population and was permeated through the military, in essence: dammit we are here to win so let's win. Don't worry about the reasons why we are there, push the enemy back and do NOT let them have a safe haven.

Vietnam was run as a farce, it's well documented that in many cases once a hill was taken (you always go for the high ground) it was abandoned and the Cong would take back over, thus wasting US blood and treasure. I feel for the poor bastards who watched their buddies die for basically nothing. In that way it was completely unlike WWII. I hope like hell that's not happening in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So we have a guerrilla war going on.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/248336/guerrilla

member of an irregular military force fighting small-scale, limited actions, in concert with an overall political-military strategy, against conventional military forces. Guerrilla tactics involve constantly shifting attack operations and include the use of sabotage and terrorism.

In a guerrilla war if someone points a weapon at you, you don't ask questions, you simply vaporize them on the spot. The real problem, as you said, is a small scattered guerrilla army. Let me ask you this: how would you suggest we deal with such a thing?

Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
3/14/10 10:38 a.m.
Dr. Hess wrote: Remember when MJ had the nerve to get his doctor to OD him on propofol? Non-stop coverage for what? 2 weeks? And what really happened during that time? Why, ahh, the House of Representatives passed Cap and Tax without mentioning it to anyone.

The Wilderness Act (one of the most restrictive and least popular of all land use laws) was rammed through Congress in the aftermath of the assasination of John F Kennedy. It was a calculated campaign which took advantage of the confusion and the attention of the population being drawn elsewhere. In the aftermath of 9/11, the Sierra Club circulated a memo warning its members to be very low key about pushing unpopular legislation.

ignorant
ignorant SuperDork
3/14/10 11:59 a.m.
Jensenman wrote: Let me ask you this: how would you suggest we deal with such a thing?

berkeleyed if I know. My question wasn't loaded at all. Everytime, I see someone elude to "they're not letting us fight the war we need to"(paraphrased), I think they're instantly suggesting we nuke them to hell and I don't think that would work here.

It's not an easy situation and quite frankly, guerilla wars are the way countries generally win independence because they are so damed hard to fight. Reference Ireland in the 1920's if you want a modern deal.. Or How we kept the revolution going during some of those "lean" years for the conventional army.... We used nukes in WWII to keep us out of a guerilla war, Because we knew we wouldn't win it easily.

I think they only way to truly win a guerilla war, is to get the country themselves to take over the fighting and do it by winning over the population. We're trying it. It's not easy. Hence our current conversation.

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury SuperDork
3/14/10 1:09 p.m.
Datsun1500 wrote: If you declare it a war and let the people who are protecting them know it is open season, watch the support for them disappear

quoted for truth!

ignorant
ignorant SuperDork
3/14/10 1:13 p.m.
Datsun1500 wrote: It's not a matter of nuking the place. It is a matter of declaring it a war and fighting it as such. There will be civilian casualties, there will be times to shoot first, ask questions later. At this point if the enemy takes cover in a civilian area we have to stop. Get that rule out of there and watch the civilians stop protecting them.... If they take cover in a mosque, we can't go in. Guess where they run to? We damage the religious areas and we are made out to be the bad guys, not the guys taking cover there.... If you declare it a war and let the people who are protecting them know it is open season, watch the support for them disappear. Right now it's "noble" to protect them, once that changes to "deadly" it will be a different game.

see comments above about winning over the hearts and minds of the people. If you start blowing up where they worship, you might have some issues.

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury SuperDork
3/14/10 1:57 p.m.

Datsun, I agree with your argument...mostly. Some might say our willingness to follow some rules is what makes us the good guys. Regarding blowing up places of worship - if theres bad guys in there, let 'er rip. But you cant start saying "if we abandon the rules we can win" because then what makes us breaking the rules any better than them breaking 'em?

ignorant
ignorant SuperDork
3/14/10 2:45 p.m.
Datsun1500 wrote:
4cylndrfury wrote: because then what makes us breaking the rules any better than them breaking 'em?
They don't have any rules for us to break. I am not saying bomb places of worship just to do so, but if we bomb a few of them when the bad guys are hiding in them I am sure the locals will stop letting them in....

Or... They'll start hating us more and join Al Qeda(sp?) in droves.

edit: look, I don't have the answers. It's just that in life, rarely is the answer more force. And in my experience, as the husband of a teacher, more force is a bandaid that treats a symptom and not the disease. It rarely ever solves anything long term....

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