Schools, Shootings, Children and Adulthood

I refuse to get on the internets and discuss politics anymore, but I had a thought about what's been on the news lately about shootings and firearms...

One of the new regulations that's being proposed is to raise the minimum age to buy a firearm to 21.  (It is now 18).  The implication here is that someone who is 18 may not be fully mentally equipped to deal with the responsibility of owning a firearm.  

Fair enough.  Raise the minimum age to buy a firearm to 21.  But, I want something else, too.  Back in 1984, we raised the minimum alcohol purchase age from 18 to 21 as well.  Clearly, this is a trend- children in our society today are taking longer to mature.  So we restrict "adult" activities until some later age at which they are more likely to be able to handle these responsibilities.  

Where am I going with this?  I want the voting age raised to 21, too.  Hey, we've already established that we don't trust you with alcohol and we don't trust you with firearms, why should we trust you with the most sacred duty inherent in representative democracy?  While we're at it, let's knock the driving age up to 21, too.  Drivers under the age of 21 account for most of the lethal accidents every year, we can fix that problem at the same time.  Logically, they shouldn't be having children, either, if they're still children themselves.  No having children if you're under 21, too.  

In fact, why limit it to 21?  Most car rental places won't rent you a car if you're under 25.  The Federal Government, in fact, says that a person is a "dependent" until the age of 26, and mandates that they be able to be covered under the parents' health care plans.  

So lets just go ahead and admit it: children today are growing up more and more slowly.  They can't handle booze, firearms, driving, having kids of their own, or voting.  Many of them can't even hold down a full time job, or get health insurance by themselves.  So we just raise the national age of "adulthood", with all of its privileges and responsibilities that come therein, to 26.  

I would, however, propose one caveat.  If a person moves out of their parents' house, gets a full-time job, their own health insurance, and in general proves that they can be a productive, mature, adult in society, then grant them full adult privileges right then and there.  15 years old and living by yourself, knocking down 40 a week, paying for your own health insurance?  Here's your adult card.  Full time Military service would qualify as well.  

Sound fair?  

Agreed. You should also have to pass a mental and financial check before reproducing. 

Hell yes!  In fact, I know plenty of people who think like a child, and they're well into their 30's.  I say we move to a merit-based system.  You think you're an adult and want the privileges that go along with adulthood?  Prove it!

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

If this goes through am I entitled to eight years of "back childhood"?

In reply to gearheadmb :

Yep.  I suggest you head to your parents' basement and play "Call of Duty" for 16 hours per day to practice.  

I don't think children are taking longer to mature. I think biology is, and always has been, biology. There may be a biological imperative to make them physically mature faster, but my own personal jury is out on that. I think the real problem is technology and societal changes are forcing them to mature faster mentally, and the brain just can't keep up. Kids todayare forced to do a ridiculous amount of learning, faster than we ever had. You know what i did in 3rd grade? Learned cursive and multiplication tables.  Kids these days, even at that age, are experiencing way more due to stuff kike cell phones, tablets, school issued laptops, etc.  And with said tech, the gap between the haves and the have nots is increasing at an exponential rate, and forcing the have nots t9 work even harder to catch up. Combine that with the ridiculous amount of anti bullying/zero tolerance policing going on...Kids are being backed into a corner with the feeling of no way out except becoming a lead dispensary. Given that in many cases it IS pretty easy to get a long gun (pistols still need waiting times afaik in most places) and they're fairly cheap.....a kid with no way out, an id says he old enough to kill for uncle Sam, and a few bucks in his pocket from double shifts at McDonald's (which pays better than my job for berkeleys sake) ....I can see why this happens. I'm not sure what the solution is, but I understand where it comes from.  

I'm fine with it because I already have my license. But if you would have told 16yo me that I had to wait to get my license i would have went crazy. Like literally crazy. Not many kids care about driving nowadays though.

In reply to Nick Comstock :

True story. I have an 18 year old in my house could give two E36 M3s about driving despite 3 offers of free cars (mom, both grandfathers) and absolutely no good job prospects without a bus pass. 

Maybe it's a cultural thing but I don't think people are growing up any more slowly. If anything they might be growing up more quickly. Although there does seem to be an increase in people who never grow up at all, but I wouldn't call that growing up more slowly.

I'm also worried that your idea would effectively bring back timocratic voting requirements - property ownership is a tall ask with today's wages and property prices.

Lof8 said:

Agreed. You should also have to pass a mental and financial check before reproducing. 

That never ends well. I assume this is an off the cuff gut reaction of yours, but if that's really your position, you should probably do some research on eugenics in the US before believing this. It's a deeply flawed position that ends up with forced sterilization of "undesirables" with little to no checks and balances. Few things terrify me more. And this happened in the United States, only a few decades ago. In other words, STRONGLY DISAGREE!

IBTL, motherberkeleyers!

In reply to Mndsm :

In reply to GameboyRMH :

You raise valid points.  Truth is, its probably a combination of being exposed to a whole lot that they aren't biologically/ mentally capable of processing in a responsible fashion, while at the same time being couched in a society where it's becoming more acceptable to prolong childhood through various means (perpetual studenthood, for example).  Although this can vary by economic status.  A child of an upper middle class family can more likely mooch off their parents for a few years longer than a blue-collar worker's offspring who's forced to grow up and support themselves, because no one else is going to.  

I would say, biologically, no, nothing's significantly different.  Mentally, though, this is where the change is.  And that's what I care about.  Biologically there's nothing preventing a 17 year old from doing any of the things I mentioned.  Are they mentally equipped to do so?  I think that varies quite widely person to person.  

And, yes, I realize that getting into the whole "who can have kids" thing is very dangerous ground.  My whole post being somewhat tongue in cheek, and a thought experiment, I threw it in there anyway.  Forced birth control would rile up conservatives and liberals, and for good reasons.  

Gameboy (or is Gameman?),

I'm gonna disagree with you and say that kids these days are maturing in different ways. I think given their lack of experience, kids can problem solve pretty well, and despite their addiction to phones I think they understand society and social situations in a way that's different than most of the 50+ generation. 

A few areas where I think today's kids are vastly different than those of the 80's is that kids today are really bombarded and warped by media. It's not just video games, it's the same politics, the same memes, the same rhetoric that adults are susceptible to.  The primary issue I see: TROLLING. 

Many adults I know fall victim to the joys of trolling. That is, coming into a conversation merely to stir things up, piss people off, and leave. They are so set in their ideals that it's no longer about trying to sway other with debate and opinion, now they just try to piss people off. How is that productive to society? It's not, but they don't care. 

How does this translate to kids and school shooting? Simple - these kids don't care at all about the conversation, they aren't trying to prove a point or be original, they are trying to leave a mark on a world that has unjustly treated them. A world they can't change. They are just as cynical and unapologetic as their parents, they view themselves as "nothing to lose" and they think threats; getting people worked up, as fun.

Many of these kids (mostly boys) are essentially suicidal, but they don't view themselves that way. No longer is suicide, or adventure, or drugs and alcohol, or sex, or CARS viewed as the preferred way of messing up a young person's life, now you've gotta go out in a blaze of a glory. Get'em riled up. Restart the culture war. Drop a troll bomb. 

I'm not sure how you reach kids who feel alone, who feel like there isn't anything to look forward to? We can't reach every kid in that situation, but maybe we can things they might use to harm others out of reach.

In reply to pheller :

Very thoughtful input.  We watched "The Breakfast Club" the other night.  First time I'd seen it in probably 10 years.  In light of today's society, it seems almost quaint.  There's one scene in the movie where the geek kid (Anthony Michael Hall) tels how he got detention because he brings a flare gun in to school.  And it's funny- or it was supposed to be, in the movie.  Most of the rest of the end of the movie is about them all smoking pot and connecting with each other to resolve their differences.  

Fast-forward 30 years.  All those kids in the movie are parents now and _their_ kids are dealing with the same issues.  How do they respond?  How would any of the actions in that movie be treated, or looked at, in today's world?

I just came to say how much I enjoy the first two pages of thoughtful discussion before these threads inevitably turn into a complete E36 M3show. IBTMFL.

dculberson said:

Lof8 said:

Agreed. You should also have to pass a mental and financial check before reproducing. 

That never ends well. I assume this is an off the cuff gut reaction of yours, but if that's really your position, you should probably do some research on eugenics in the US before believing this. It's a deeply flawed position that ends up with forced sterilization of "undesirables" with little to no checks and balances. Few things terrify me more. And this happened in the United States, only a few decades ago. In other words, STRONGLY DISAGREE!

It was a bit of an off the cuff reaction. But sometimes I feel that about half the population SHOULD be sterilized. So maybe I do support it. The shiny happy people of the world are ruining things for the rest of us. 

 I don't know all the particulars, but someone dropped the ball not recognizing this nut job as a nut job.  Raising the buy age, enforce strict training, make everything in the world a single shot weapon and it won't be enough for some groups and the criminals and whackos will still get the illegal weapons.

School teachers and administrators with training and experience should be CCW.

Remove all the guns in the world and you may see a U-Haul ripping through a school yard.

IBTL

gearheadmb said:

I just came to say how much I enjoy the first two pages of thoughtful discussion before these threads inevitably turn into a complete E36 M3show. IBTMFL.

QFT

21 to vote.

21 to drink.

21 to own guns.

18 to fight in war. 

Mmmmmh...

914Driver said:

[...]you may see a U-Haul ripping through a school yard.

From the rest of the world's example, you'll more likely see kids bringing knives instead, turning dozens of fatalities into a few injuries.

Appleseed said:

21 to vote.

21 to drink.

21 to own guns.

18 to fight in war. 

Mmmmmh...

Hence why I included Military service in the final caveat.  Fight for your country?  Here's your adult card.  

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

That seems fair.

How about regulating guns the same way cars are regulated? 

Title and annual registration.

Emissions testing - Ballistics testing.

Licenses that involve knowledge/skills to acquire/renew, with hands-on, supervised testing.

Just a "shower thought" I had while driving to work.

IBTL

I don't think parenting is always to blame. There are a lot of crappy parents out there, but they produce girls, they reproduce in cities, they reproduce worldwide. Again, the rest of the world does not have this problem. When was the last time a black kid shot up a school (that wasn't gang related)? Or a girl? It does happen, but with less fan-fare and in different situations than our more recent events.  In many cases it involves people are out of school, in college, or no longer living with parents. 

The Las Vegas shooter was a middle-aged, if not retirement-aged man. He carried 22 semi-automatic AR10/AR15 weapons, nearly all equipped with bump stock into a hotel room. He grew up without facebook or twitter. He worked in government, was a successful businessman, relatively socially active. 

In nearly half of all "spree" or "mass" shootings, the shooter kills themselves. 

These are people who are suicidal. They have access to guns. In some cases, lots of guns. Increasingly, more and more people are turning those guns at others, instead of themselves. Why?