codrus (Forum Supporter) said:
aircooled said:
Never assume firearms accuracy for most law enforcement. They do tend to be rather good at emptying their guns as fast as possible though. This is my favorite example. Two women in the truck, one of them was hit twice, non life threatening!
One would hope the secret service has somewhat better training than the average county deputy.
Someone once pointed out that when Ronnie got shot, the Secret Service agents whipped out Uzis.
Uzis are not exactly spray-and-pray, but they aren't the most accurate of firearms either, and with that in mind, you really really don't want to be anywhere close to where their downrange is, because they probably don't care in the moment.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
Uzis are not exactly spray-and-pray, but they aren't the most accurate of firearms either, and with that in mind, you really really don't want to be anywhere close to where their downrange is, because they probably don't care in the moment.
A classic photo:
I've never fired one, but AIUI the Uzi is pretty accurate in semi-auto mode (full auto is a different story.) I really doubt they still use Uzis though, an MP5 seems much more likely.
BoulderG said:
aircooled said:
Never assume firearms accuracy for most law enforcement. They do tend to be rather good at emptying their guns as fast as possible though.
Remember the 1999 shooting of Amadou Diallo in New York City? Four police officers fired 41 shots at him in the doorway of his apartment building, hitting him 19 times. This means they missed more than half the time from fewer than ten feet away.
https://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/05/nyregion/officers-in-bronx-fire-41-shots-and-an-unarmed-man-is-killed.html
(Ignoring him being unarmed, etc., and just focusing on the shooting accuracy.)
Quoting from the article, edited for brevity: "Two officers emptied their weapons, firing 16 shots each. One fired five times and one fired four times. Three of the officers have been involved in shootings before, which is unusual in a department where more than 90 percent of all officers never fire their weapons in the line of duty."
There was another like that with the Kehoe brothers in the 90s.
Many many rounds fired from a distance of like 5 feet and no one( I believe 4 people were shooting back and forth) got hit
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
Can't believe he pulled that out of his coat. When Hillary visited work one day, one of the there agents stood around until she entered then it ws hand in the shirt pocket and never took his eyes off the ceiling. (~70ft. up)
aircooled said:
In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :
You do have to wonder if "breaking into a car" justifies use of deadly force, even in Secret Service regs. Certainly does not with most any other police / law enforcement.
That's my biggest issue with the whole deal. If that is me in VA (much less DC), I can be cited/arrested for an unlawful discharge. The fact that law enforcement can do it with no repercussions (maybe there is internal punishment) is frustrating to me.
jmabarone said:
aircooled said:
In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :
You do have to wonder if "breaking into a car" justifies use of deadly force, even in Secret Service regs. Certainly does not with most any other police / law enforcement.
That's my biggest issue with the whole deal. If that is me in VA (much less DC), I can be cited/arrested for an unlawful discharge. The fact that law enforcement can do it with no repercussions (maybe there is internal punishment) is frustrating to me.
The article says it was a Secret Service vehicle and Biden's grand daughter was present. There have been some well publicized reports in the past of government secret police vehicles being broken into and lots of G.I. weapons stolen. The potential embarrassment of that happening right in front of them probably prompted the over zealous, and probably illegal, response of the Secret Service to actions that were not an immediate deadly threat to anyone. But they will get a pass no doubt since they are made soldiers of the Praetorians.
In reply to 914Driver :
As I remember, from other pictures, you can see an open small hard case he was carrying.
Man, that article is essentially useless. The fact that there were 3 people involved in the attempted break in, and the fact that there almost certainly were significant arms held in hte SUV, and the strong need to not have those weapons used by bad guys all lead me to think it was a pretty reasonable shot to take. The article doesn't say if the baddies were armed, if they brandished their weapons back at the SS, if their getaway driver was poised to run them down, etc. We weren't there, and just can't say.
And yeah, pistol accuracy is generally pretty atrocious. 20 years ago I was the 3rd best shot with a 9mm in the state of Kentucky. But I'd hate to have to make a pistol shot at more than maybe 30 feet, pumped up on adrenalin, with all the pressures and questions that pulling the trigger have to be swirling through ones head at such a time.
