Skidsteer info needed.

Hey gang, I need some help understanding skidsteer ratings and any info from those who have them or work with them. 

After moving into our new house 5 years ago, I decided that a new piece of “property maintenance equipment” was needed. You guys know what I mean, I wanted a new toy! I wanted to construct dry-stacked fieldstone walls and needed a way to transport pallets of fieldstone around the property, move boulders/topsoil/mulch, etc. I ended up buying a 2001 John Deere 270 with 4200 hours on the clock because it was capable of lifting the weight I needed and more importantly was within my budget. It runs great, lifts a whole bunch and is 99% reliable(all you can ask for from construction equipment), but is a “wheel machine” and here is where I have a small issue. The unit weighs nearly 9000 pounds and if the yard/woods are wet, the damn thing just sinks in and I need to wait for help to pull it out. I would like to upgrade to a track machine when the budget allows because I would get ALOT more use out of it because they “float” better than wheeled machines. The problem is I need a unit that lifts at least as much as my current machine but looking online at specs for different machines is very confusing. My current boulder wall project has pushed the limit of this 270 and the next project will be even worse. Tracks will make it much better as I don’t need to wait for the yard to dry out as much, but I still need 4000+ pounds of lift capacity.

My John Deere 270 has a listed operating load rating of 2800#. I know for a fact that it will lift 3500# to maximum height! Nowhere does it list this. It will get 4000# off the ground and move it around. Nowhere does it list this either. This is why I’m confused.

Last week I had a friend bring over his Bobcat T650 (compact track loader) for me to play with. It’s a 2010 model with 1200 hours and is an awesome looking machine. It has an operating old rating of 3650#, nearly 1000# more than my machine. I drove it around a bit to get used to the controls and then we put it to the test. First a 2500# pallet of stone and it was no problem. Next, I have a pallet of cement which I’d 4000# and it wouldn’t lift it. I’m confused? If my machine lifts 45% more that it’s rated for, but the newer Bobcat won’t lift 10% more than it’s advertised rating? Maybe a clogged hydraulic filter? Who knows, but it struggles.

Ive also recently used a Cat 242D and a 257D, both of which are too small for my needs.

So, who here has experience with track machines(multi terrain loaders)? Which models have you used and your thoughts on them? I am going to eventually sell my machine and put some additional $$$ to buy a track machine, but the max budget will be in the neighborhood of $25k($13 for mine plus another $12+/-), so it will be a used machine with 1000-1500 hours. Any suggestions on which make and models to go look at?

Thanks in advance and I’m looking forward to hearing your stories.

lotusseven7 said:

 

Last week I had a friend bring over his Bobcat T650 (compact track loader) for me to play with. It’s a 2010 model with 1200 hours and is an awesome looking machine. It has an operating old rating of 3650#, nearly 1000# more than my machine. I drove it around a bit to get used to the controls and then we put it to the test. First a 2500# pallet of stone and it was no problem. Next, I have a pallet of cement which I’d 4000# and it wouldn’t lift it. I’m confused? If my machine lifts 45% more that it’s rated for, but the newer Bobcat won’t lift 10% more than it’s advertised rating? Maybe a clogged hydraulic filter? Who knows, but it struggles.

 

Being forklift rated and using some of the bigger electric forks (10,000 pounds) I am willing to bed the bobcat won't lift 10 pounds over it's rating, it's not allowed to. It's either electronics (being a 2010) or a popoff valve that keeps the machine from destroying itself.

Sounds like you need a mini ex, and not a track loader. 

bearmtnmartin said:

Sounds like you need a mini ex, and not a track loader. 

I’ve had a Kubota KX 121 at the house several times and when I’ve used it, it’s a nice machine, but not the correct tool for my jobs. My latest job is building a stacked boulder wall. They were delivered/dumped about 150’ from where the wall is being constructed. I needed to sort then place each one. After getting each course finished, it needed to have stone compacted behind the boulders then soil/modified backfilled and compacted. The fill material is 250-300’ from the wall and I’ve made hundreds of trips back and forth. The only way I could do this is with a bucket on the skidsteer. A mini excavator could place the boulders but never move the fill. They just can cover ground like a skidsteer does. 

When I bought the pallets of fieldstone and boulders, they were delivered to the top of our driveway  I had to unload them and then bring them 900’ down the driveway and stack them  I’d still be there if using a mini!!!

There’s a time and place for each each and every machine but since I can only afford one, a skidsteer is the weapon of choice for me for now. 

Most mini excavators come with skid steer quick connects now so you can run whatever bucket you want on the front while still have the backhoe or 3 point hitch. I don't understand how they could move rocks but not fill unless you were only using a grappler on the front. Especially if you borrowed or bought a trailer to go with it.

Why couldn't you just get tracks for your current skid steer? I've used a few wheeled bobcats with tracks over them, better than just wheels in mud, but not as better as a track based machine. Might make a good compromise for considerably less than just buying another machine.

I’m struggling to imagine how a mini ex could EVER lift the equivalent of a #4000 lb pallet of stone. That’s not a thing. 

In reply to lotusseven7 :

You are overloading your machine. 

That’s not really a problem (most of us have done that for decades), but you can’t do it with a newer machine. 

A #2800 machine can lift #2800 lbs, and usually not to the full extension of the reach. 

You need to buy a much bigger machine, or stick with the older ones.

Look into add on tracks. We got a set for our 853. They loop over the existing tires. At first I told the old man l think it's a gimick. But they work. A bit of a pain to put on, but we used a come-along to pull it tight. Soild steel,  so they aren't so nice on pavement, but they work incredibly well on turf. 

I'd look into it, seeing how you like the machine you have.

Looks like add on tracks for your Deere are out there: https://www.mclarenindustries.com/us/en/product-catalog/john-deere/270-vts/rubber-tracks/00968/0097357/

If In reply to lotusseven7 :

I used to Sell Skid steers.  ( I hated it but it was part of my job) 

older John Deere’s like yours would not only lift more than lesser brands like Bob Cat but power through more. It has to do with the lifting mechanism and center of gravity.  

If you notice the Bob Cat  lifts in an arc while the Deere lifts closer to straight up.  As the Bob Cat lifts the weight moves away slightly while the John Deere remains about the same distance in Front. Caterpillar also has a tracked machine  in fact they bought the company that developed the whole tracked Skid steer concept.  

One  other thing, most Skid steers are rated based on a GMA pallet  42x40 with a load center of 20 inches. Most construction pallets are not to GMA standards.  

Yes BobCat has relief valves so does Deere and Cat.  The difference Deere sets them on the high side while Cat and BobCat set them to specifications.  

If you’re asking who makes the best,  I’m partial to Deere.  Bob Cat is the most popular and in volume they will cost the least, but you really need to know how to haggle to get the bottom price.  I’ve been competitive price wise with anybody with the factories help but I need a competitive quote to beat. 

 But these are ground engaging equipment.   They live a very tough life. I’ve seen one and two year old equipment turned into total junk  and 20 year old equipment in remarkable condition.  Appearance is extremely deceiving.  Junk with a fresh paint job, decals, tires and seat probably has a newish hour meter too. Unlike cars it’s not illegal  to replace hour meters.  

Don't fall for the “dealer Demo” either  As a salesman I was encouraged to  use equipment to become proficient  on demo’s  I brought a piece home and dug my basement addition.  I finished just as a heavy rain started to fall so I left it there and went inside to watch the storm of the century fall.  Trapping it  with no way to get out except through the basement that was now filled with 10 feet of muddy water.  

The salesman who sold that piece wasn’t going to lose the sale waiting for the hole to dry up and dragged it through the muddy basement hole   ( yes underwater )  with enough big equipment he succeeded but it was bent, drowned,  and distorted. 

He had the mechanics pressure wash it, changed the fluids, replaced a piece or two, and heated up and bent the frame more or less back in shape.  And painted it to look new.  

The salesman got his commission  but the owner got a lemon and week after week it was being worked on.  Eventually his reputation was so damaged he had to quit and have the machine repossessed.  

Now to be fair It’s been a long time since I sold them. And like everything else things change. 

In reply to SVreX :

Even a fifty will load it over the front. If you pull the bucket off and lift from the end of the stick you can probably move 4000 pounds from the side. And the advantage to a mini is you don't need to carry a heavy load through soft ground. You can put it down, walk ahead and then bring it too you. Any loader either with wheels or tracks will really struggle in soft ground with two ton on a set of forks.

In reply to lotusseven7 :

Nice wall.

bearmtnmartin said:

In reply to SVreX :

Even a fifty will load it over the front. If you pull the bucket off and lift from the end of the stick you can probably move 4000 pounds from the side. And the advantage to a mini is you don't need to carry a heavy load through soft ground. You can put it down, walk ahead and then bring it too you. Any loader either with wheels or tracks will really struggle in soft ground with two ton on a set of forks.

Huh. I had no idea. 

43 years in construction. I have never once seen a mini-ex with pallet forks.

(Perhaps there is a reason?)

MadScientistMatt said:

Looks like add on tracks for your Deere are out there: https://www.mclarenindustries.com/us/en/product-catalog/john-deere/270-vts/rubber-tracks/00968/0097357/

I like this solution!

In reply to SVreX :

Where did I say you should put pallet forks on a mini? I can't believe in 43 years of construction you never saw an excavator sling a pallet. I only have 30 years in construction and I have seen that done fairly routinely.

In reply to bearmtnmartin :

Nope. Never. 

The crews I work with tend to have much bigger equipment. No need to attempt that with a mini. 

We also usually have a Lull available. 

Minis can have a huge range of lifting capability. They start at about 400 lbs extended to the front (even less to the side). They can run up to 10,000 lbs, but that’s a bigger machine (at a higher price point than the OP wants)

I believe the question was about skid steers. That’s his preferred machine, not a mini ex.

I’ve looked at the McLaren OTT conversion and spoke with their salesman. Just shy of $4000 and it seems like it would work well for what I need. I love my machine, it runs great even though it has 4450 hours on the clock, lifts everything I’ve asked to this point and really only needs a new 2-speed switch as it works intermittently. Having the ability to take the track on-and-off when  necessary is a huge advantage. Last year I would have used my machine much more if I had tracks. The wet weather hampered my ability to use the machine as every time I went into the woods, it got stuck. 

A mini-excavator would be a nice piece to have, but with all of the projects I’ve had so far, there are only a few times that I felt it was necessary and beyond the capabilities of a skidsteer. On those occasions, I can rent one 3 miles away or have a friend 2 miles away bring his over. 

Since this was canoe-revived, let's hear from Ward Burton for the final word on Cat skid steer loaders. (NSFW language)

In reply to lotusseven7 :

The reason the John Deere ( and one other brand ) will out lift the Bobcat has to do with the lifting arms. The John Deere lifts pretty much straight up whereas Bobcat and most others lift in an arc. 
 

The further forward the load is the more mass you need to counteract the weight. 
 

I don't know the time range but for a while Deere was buying skid steers from New Holland(Ford) and putting their engines in them. The best thing was they would put a more powerful engine than NH would for the class of machine.  They might still be doing it, I haven't looked into them in 15 years.

If anybody is thinking about the tracks over tires ask people with your machine.  I tried them on a Bobcat in my rental fleet and totally screwed up the drives in the machine.  I've talked to a few others that had the same results.

I known this was bumped up, but look at loegering tracks.  They are metal and go over the tires.

The JD 270 is a beast.  On wheeled machines they are rated at 50% of tipping load, so your 270 tipped at 5400-5500 ish pounds , thus the rating. Tracked machines are rated at 35% of tipping load, but will often have both numbers (35%, & 50%) for comparison.

here is a link to a much larger JD Track loader picking up a jersey barrier, 8,000lbs, when it is rated at 3300-3400lbs.

https://youtu.be/RlIsUwihZj0

Wow really bumped up, hope you found something before now