So about the new 1/2 Ton Diesel Ram

HiTempguy wrote: manual trannies can't handle the powa (hence why they aren't offered anymore and for the last years the dodges were detuned for torques with the 6 speed)

Actually this is slightly misleading. A couple quick points.

1. Manufacuters have been derating engines in first and second gear for some time. Both on auto and manual transmission variants. Dodge was derating the 6.7 in 1st and 2nd back in 2007 in the auto trans model. I'll bet ford and chevy are doing the same.

2. Beyond the clutching and shifting mechanisms transmissions are pretty similar. Gears are gears and shafts are shafts. To say a manual transmission cannot hold the power is silly. Most over the road trucks are manual transmissions or automatically shifted manuals. My old ISX did about 500-600hp with torque available up to 1700-2000ft-lbs. what really prompted the shift I auto's is that the new transmissions no longer give up mpg to a standard, and torque delivery can be managed by the truck and not the driver. Basically they couldn't design a clutch system that would be acceptable to the wussified modern left leg and could hold up to the abuse. The modern trucks are just too powerful for the average idiot wanna be cowboy who buys a diesel truck for Home Depot runs.

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: To say a manual transmission cannot hold the power is silly.

Dodge limited the torque PERIOD on it's manual transmission cummins trucks, doesn't matter what gear. End of discussion. The costs to make a transmission that can survive the (now what, 850 torques stock?) along with having to deal with the warranty of people owning said trucks didn't make it worth it which I agree with you, but basically, you are agreeing with my point in my original post so I don't understand the need for you to say my point is misleading (which it isn't, it is spot on).

The manual transmission had shortfalls that manufacturers were not willing to accept (durability). Sorry, I consider the clutch part of a manual transmission as it it is an integral part that differentiates manuals from automatics. Congrats on winning the semantics debate. Having said that, there are plenty of broken dodge 5/6 speeds, ford 6 speeds, and duramax 6 speeds to refute your claims of them not being weak.

Either way, we can both agree that modern day auto's are just as good as the manual transmissions they replaced. I loves me some allison 1000 tranny, it rocks my little world when towing.

Grizz wrote: Another musing of mine, make it a crate engine, so that I can put one in my Miata.

FTFY

HiTempguy wrote:

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: To say a manual transmission cannot hold the power is silly.

Dodge limited the torque PERIOD on it's manual transmission cummins trucks, doesn't matter what gear. End of discussion.

Yup, I can feel it below 2000 rpms in our truck. Most of what I have seen is the clutch is not up to the task not the trans itself. When we kill that, we will put in monster clutch and see what happens.

In reply to HiTempguy:

There are many many long range "light load" haulers who will disagree with you about the manual trans. Most of those are 5/6sp manuals. And they're having to buy low milage used to keep the manuals........thus driving up the price of them to everyone else. They seem to love 7.3L psd's.

yamaha wrote: They seem to love 7.3L psd's.

Because the companies contracting out the work for those haulers are DEMANDING certain vehicles to insure the shipment arrives on time. More times then not, the 5.9 or 7.3 is the only choice. Doesn't matter if you have the most bulletproof 6.6, 6.0, 6.4, or 6.7, you don't get work because those break down far too often and the length of repair is too long.

In reply to Ranger50:

That makes sense......most of theirs end up with over half a million if not more miles on them.

Bump... EPA #'s out now:

http://media.chrysler.com/newsrelease.do;jsessionid=63F13B78918F2A1CB18DBD5B315EB7F6?&id=15305&mid=1

"The EcoDiesel-powered 2014 Ram 1500 has earned a 28-mpg rating from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the best highway-cycle test result ever achieved by a full-size, half-ton pickup.

It also exceeds the EPA highway rating for the top-ranked small pickup."

“The new Ram 1500 EcoDiesel is truly in a class of it’s own with 28 MPG (hwy) and the ability to tow 9200 pounds,”

Why drive anything else?

Interesting. Given the premium listed and local fuel prices, I'd have to drive 25,000 miles per year to break even on that over a 6 year loan.

wait, does it require DEF? Anyone know?

It IS pretty cool though, those numbers aren't far off what we got out of an '05 MINI S....

ultraclyde wrote: Interesting. Given the premium listed and local fuel prices, I'd have to drive 25,000 miles per year to break even on that over a 6 year loan.

I still don't quite get why the first thing everyone equates diesel to is the "economy" option. (this isn't a knock at you... just what I see in forum land)

I see it more as a have your cake and eat it too.

It's a premium engine offering. Towing with diesel torque is just plain nice.

I don't think you need to "break even". People buy the V8 over the V6 all the time and pay more for it and put more gas in it. Nobody does "break even" calculations on V8's.

The diesel makes 420 ft.lbs. of torque where you need it in a truck. It does so with no penalty at the pump. The 5.7 hemi by comparison (highest power gas engine in the 1/2 ton) is rated at 407 ft.lbs.

The premium for the "EcoDiesel in the 1/2 ton is $2850 over the gas 5.7 Hemi V8. Comparatively, over in 3/4 ton land, the 6.7 Cummins is an $8,000 premium over the 5.7 Hemi. (or a $6500 premium over the 6.4 Hemi)

What MPG are they expecting the Aluminum F-150 to get?

I think I'd rather have an light weight gas F-150 that gets 25mpg than a heavyweight Ram that gets 28.

Although I'd probably like a NV with a 5.0L V8 Diesel that the Titan is supposed to get next year.

Either way, trucks needs an efficiency increase these days.

xflowgolf wrote:

ultraclyde wrote: Interesting. Given the premium listed and local fuel prices, I'd have to drive 25,000 miles per year to break even on that over a 6 year loan.

I still don't quite get why the first thing everyone equates diesel to is the "economy" option. (this isn't a knock at you... just what I see in forum land) I see it more as a have your cake and eat it too. It's a premium engine offering. Towing with diesel torque is just plain nice. I don't think you need to "break even". People buy the V8 over the V6 all the time and pay more for it and put more gas in it. Nobody does "break even" calculations on V8's. The diesel makes 420 ft.lbs. of torque where you need it in a truck. It does so with no penalty at the pump. The 5.7 hemi by comparison (highest power gas engine in the 1/2 ton) is rated at 407 ft.lbs. The premium for the "EcoDiesel in the 1/2 ton is $2850 over the gas 5.7 Hemi V8. Comparatively, over in 3/4 ton land, the 6.7 Cummins is an $8,000 premium over the 5.7 Hemi. (or a $6500 premium over the 6.4 Hemi)

Now see, this is where you err. You are using logic and common sense on the internets. You are playing the game wrong.
Another part of the equation that many miss is the resale value. A diesel will return more value 5 or 6 years down the road if you were to sell it. And if you are buying a diesel for towing, it is multitudes better at that. Torques like to tow.

I can't seem to find it on the Ram site. Am I dumb?

Edit:

Found it. Sub-page. http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/ecodiesel/

xflowgolf wrote: The diesel makes 420 ft.lbs. of torque where you need it in a truck.

So does the Ecoboost V6.

However, I must admit that my skepticism over this engine seems to have been ill-founded. Kudos to FCA for hitting that number. I remain skeptical about real-world mileage being that high (and that includes the aluminum F-150) because of aerodynamics, but clearly they did something right with this thing.

PHeller said: Either way, trucks needs an efficiency increase these days.

They are more efficient (and powerful) than they've ever been. By a long shot.

Unless the price of diesel comes back down, there is zero economy benefit to a diesel truck.

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: idiot wanna be cowboy who buys a diesel truck for Home Depot runs.

Guilty as charged but in fairness, I’d also use it to pull a three foot high seedling out of my suburban front yard

Joking aside, my wife loves trucks as much as I do…if I came home with a 50K Cayman, she’d go on a multi hour rant about there being no room for the kids, blah, blah, blah…if I came home with a 50K quad cab diesel, she’d immediately start planning out wonderful adventures for the family to take in it.

Sky_Render wrote: Unless the price of diesel comes back down, there is **zero** economy benefit to a diesel truck.

False. Do the math for the gas equivilents too. It is EASY math too. Fuel is 20% more expensive for diesel and then how much MPG do you get towing with a big gas V8 (personal Example towing a datsun 240z with a 350 K5 Blazer and a 7.3 Powerstroke: 10 mpg gas VS 18MPG diesel). The fuel is slighly more more expensive and the effieciency is much higher towing.

The cost difference isn't in the fuel it's the initial cost of the vehicle. Fuel aside that isnt what worries me about this truck. I have replaced my EGR and DPF on my 21k miles Jetta. The modern emmissions requirements are STIFLING these vehicles. They burn cleaner at a MUCH higher complexity and total cost of ownership later down the road.

The 2014 EcoDiesel will require DEF. There's rumblings that passenger cars will require it too. The fuel mileage will be better on the diesel but when you factor in the DEF and the other real world costs it probably won't be much better than gasoline powered vehicles unless, as crankwalk noted, you are towing.

Real world overall costs: oil changes. A Cummins LOF is around a hundred clams pretty much anywhere you go, anyone who goes 15k on an oil change in a ~$22,000 engine is taking a helluva chance. So (at least for the wise man), every 7500 miles another Franklin goes out. Every 3500 on a Hemi, $32.95. Again on the Cummins, fuel filters are a must every 15k, there's another $100. Hemi: lifetime sock filter in the tank, zero cost. Air filters: this doesn't sound like much until you see that yes they do require more frequent replacement (typically every 15k) and good ones are around $30, figure every 15k on that as well. Hemi: around $18, usually at twice the interval, varies with use.

I don't have the figures in front of me, but we in the service drive added all this up and came to the conclusion that a Cummins is about 40% more expensive to run than a Hemi truck. It's difficult to make that up on fuel mileage. The EcoDiesel might get close. Maybe.

For those who might wonder about the rather short fuel filter interval, I have personally handled two repairs involving fuel contamination which caused 'hourglassing' of the filter elements which allowed that contaminated fuel past the filter and into the piezoelectric injectors. Once the injectors are contaminated, they shut down and cannot be reused, they have a unique ID number and internal circuitry with a chip that tells the PCM 'this injector is no good'. So they cannot be cleaned or reused; the purpose of this is to prevent a condition called 'blowtorching'. One repair ended up at $12,000, the other at $14,000.

Contaminated engine oil? Diesel contaminates can lead to a breakdown of the oil's lubricating properties, just like a gasser this is worst in short hop around town driving. I have heard three engines with bottom end knocks at startup which have all had oil changes at the max intervals, or even beyond. After the estimates were provided, all three trucks left the shop. Can't blame them; I couldn't swallow a $18,000 short block replacement either.

Stretch them intervals out, fellers. Makes my paycheck look REAL nice.

crankwalk wrote:

Sky_Render wrote: Unless the price of diesel comes back down, there is **zero** economy benefit to a diesel truck.

False. Do the math for the gas equivilents too. It is EASY math too. Fuel is 20% more expensive for diesel and then how much MPG do you get towing with a big gas V8 (personal Example towing a datsun 240z with a 350 K5 Blazer and a 7.3 Powerstroke: 10 mpg gas VS 18MPG diesel). The fuel is slighly more more expensive and the effieciency is much higher towing. The cost difference isn't in the fuel it's the initial cost of the vehicle. Fuel aside that isnt what worries me about this truck. I have replaced my EGR and DPF on my 21k miles Jetta. The modern emmissions requirements are STIFLING these vehicles. They burn cleaner at a MUCH higher complexity and total cost of ownership later down the road.

For "EASY math," you sure aren't good at it. Around here, diesel is 80 cents more per gallon. That's 25% more to fill up. Now, unless you're towing all the time, you're certainly not going to realize that 80% increase in efficiency you just quoted. And between the increased maintenance costs of diesel (see the posts above) and the $6-8K premium on a diesel motor (depending on brand and 1/2 or 3/4 ton rating), try again with the explanation of how there's an economy benefit.

Curmudgeon wrote: The 2014 EcoDiesel will require DEF. There's rumblings that passenger cars will require it too. The fuel mileage will be better on the diesel but when you factor in the DEF and the other real world costs it probably won't be much better than gasoline powered vehicles unless, as crankwalk noted, you are towing. Real world overall costs: oil changes. A Cummins LOF is around a hundred clams pretty much anywhere you go, anyone who goes 15k on an oil change in a ~$22,000 engine is taking a helluva chance. So (at least for the wise man), every 7500 miles another Franklin goes out. Every 3500 on a Hemi, $32.95. Again on the Cummins, fuel filters are a must every 15k, there's another $100. Hemi: lifetime sock filter in the tank, zero cost. Air filters: this doesn't sound like much until you see that yes they do require more frequent replacement (typically every 15k) and good ones are around $30, figure every 15k on that as well. Hemi: around $18, usually at twice the interval, varies with use. I don't have the figures in front of me, but we in the service drive added all this up and came to the conclusion that a Cummins is about 40% more expensive to run than a Hemi truck. It's difficult to make that up on fuel mileage. The EcoDiesel might get close. Maybe. For those who might wonder about the rather short fuel filter interval, I have personally handled two repairs involving fuel contamination which caused 'hourglassing' of the filter elements which allowed that contaminated fuel past the filter and into the piezoelectric injectors. Once the injectors are contaminated, they shut down and cannot be reused, they have a unique ID number and internal circuitry with a chip that tells the PCM 'this injector is no good'. So they cannot be cleaned or reused; the purpose of this is to prevent a condition called 'blowtorching'. One repair ended up at $12,000, the other at $14,000. Contaminated engine oil? Diesel contaminates can lead to a breakdown of the oil's lubricating properties, just like a gasser this is worst in short hop around town driving. I have heard three engines with bottom end knocks at startup which have all had oil changes at the max intervals, or even beyond. After the estimates were provided, all three trucks left the shop. Can't blame them; I couldn't swallow a $18,000 short block replacement either. Stretch them intervals out, fellers. Makes my paycheck look REAL nice.

I buy my Dodge OE fuel filters for $36 each and they're easy to change. Heck, I keep one in the truck just in case. I have the oil changes done at the Dodge dealership for usually about $50, depending on their most recent special. So the real world costs quoted are a bit on the high side, at least for this private owner.

I have to admit that the move to lifetime filters on new gasoline cars worries me. That's not the usual "anything new is crap!" reaction that the GRM forum specializes in, but the opinion of a guy who's had fuel filters clog up in the past and likes to be able to replace them.

I didn't buy a diesel truck for economy, although it does do well when towing. I bought one because of how they pull compared to a gas truck. I also bought a manual because I simply didn't like the way the auto shifted when I test drove it, it was hard and harsh when brand new. The loss of 50 ft-lbs hasn't bothered me yet.

Damn if I know how you are getting them for $50. When a customer buys one of those warranty oil change packages Chrysler reimburses us about $78 each (which is still below our cost for parts, labor etc) and they are notorious cheapasses. We do market research constantly, we are at or even a tick below the chain places Wal Mart etc. I'm all about loss leaders but man that's crazy.

There's a lot of guys out there who do their own service and yes they save $. We have a BUNCH of them around here who don't, though, I see them each and every day and I base my numbers on them. The numbers are real world for the average guy who can't or won't do his own service and those will make up the vast majority of owners.

Sky_Render wrote:

crankwalk wrote:

Sky_Render wrote: Unless the price of diesel comes back down, there is **zero** economy benefit to a diesel truck.

False. Do the math for the gas equivilents too. It is EASY math too. Fuel is 20% more expensive for diesel and then how much MPG do you get towing with a big gas V8 (personal Example towing a datsun 240z with a 350 K5 Blazer and a 7.3 Powerstroke: 10 mpg gas VS 18MPG diesel). The fuel is slighly more more expensive and the effieciency is much higher towing. The cost difference isn't in the fuel it's the initial cost of the vehicle. Fuel aside that isnt what worries me about this truck. I have replaced my EGR and DPF on my 21k miles Jetta. The modern emmissions requirements are STIFLING these vehicles. They burn cleaner at a MUCH higher complexity and total cost of ownership later down the road.

For "EASY math," you sure aren't good at it. Around here, diesel is 80 cents more per gallon. That's 25% more to fill up. Now, unless you're towing *all the time,* you're certainly **not** going to realize that 80% increase in efficiency you just quoted. And between the increased maintenance costs of diesel (see the posts above) and the $6-8K premium on a diesel motor (depending on brand and 1/2 or 3/4 ton rating), try again with the explanation of how there's an economy benefit.

Your argument was until the price of diesel comes down, there is no economical benefit of a diesel truck. They are MORE than 25% more efficient than a comparable gas truck and with that the fuel savings are a wash at least. If you are towing those savings add up even more. If fuel is 25% higher to buy but I get 40% more fuel economy with a diesel...

My argument, not yours in your original post mentioning only fuel costs, is the higher entry costs of the vehicle and parts complexity of DPFs and emission equipment being cost prohibitive as where it doesn't save you money not the actual price differnce from diesel to gas right now.

I just checked - on Jan 2, Ram Service sent me a coupon for an oil change for $49.95. It's an official Ram program, it's got all my service info including mileage of the last stop (I only ever provide that to the dealer), VIN and warranty info. I'm pretty sure I got a package of $45 changes by prepaying for a half dozen or so. I don't know how they're doing it either, but I'm not complaining :)

They did bend me over for the first fuel filter change, so that's when I started doing them myself. It's easy, there's no massive amount of oil to dispose of - it was designed to be a quick roadside job, so I figure it's not terribly DIY to do it myself. I also take care of my own air filters as it's such a no-brainer job.

I was surprised at the maintenance level of the beast at first. I figured it would run forever between services, but instead I started thinking of it as a piece of heavy equipment that needed appropriate maintenance. After all, it's a big heavy machine being asked to do big heavy work.

PHeller wrote: What MPG are they expecting the Aluminum F-150 to get? I think I'd rather have an light weight gas F-150 that gets 25mpg than a heavyweight Ram that gets 28.

What will really be interesting, is that Ford has now tipped their hat that they will be offering a 3.0 turbo diesel V6 in their aluminum F150 as well.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/01/ford-planning-v6-diesel-for-f-150-super-duty-stays-with-steel/

If I were a gambling man, I'd wager Ford is looking to gun for that magical 30mpg hwy number.

Sky_Render wrote:

crankwalk wrote:

Sky_Render wrote: Unless the price of diesel comes back down, there is **zero** economy benefit to a diesel truck.

False. Do the math for the gas equivilents too. It is EASY math too. Fuel is 20% more expensive for diesel and then how much MPG do you get towing with a big gas V8 (personal Example towing a datsun 240z with a 350 K5 Blazer and a 7.3 Powerstroke: 10 mpg gas VS 18MPG diesel). The fuel is slighly more more expensive and the effieciency is much higher towing. The cost difference isn't in the fuel it's the initial cost of the vehicle. Fuel aside that isnt what worries me about this truck. I have replaced my EGR and DPF on my 21k miles Jetta. The modern emmissions requirements are STIFLING these vehicles. They burn cleaner at a MUCH higher complexity and total cost of ownership later down the road.

For "EASY math," you sure aren't good at it. Around here, diesel is 80 cents more per gallon. That's 25% more to fill up. Now, unless you're towing *all the time,* you're certainly **not** going to realize that 80% increase in efficiency you just quoted. And between the increased maintenance costs of diesel (see the posts above) and the $6-8K premium on a diesel motor (depending on brand and 1/2 or 3/4 ton rating), try again with the explanation of how there's an economy benefit.

isn't that 80¢ per gallon comparing to 87 ? does the Hemi run on 87 or 93 .. around here the 93 and diesel are about the same price (couple of pennies different if any)