Keith Tanner said:
Panel prices are in free fall. I'd seriously consider DIY if I were doing it again. I would definitely check permitting and rebates - does the 30% federal credit require professional installation? Does your utility?
One nice thing about a DIY array is that you don't have to build it all at once. I know there are some good YT channels on DIY solar like Will Prowse. You'll definitely have to decide if you want storage or just a grid tie, your utility will be a big factor there.
Good points on the rebates. Permits I'm not too worried about. My township seems to be pretty permissive. When I put a fireplace in the house, they seemed like it was a burden to come out and inspect. He wasn't in the house more than 10 seconds. He said, "yup, it's a fireplace"
I would love storage, but there is a pretty big learning curve on how to do it without explosions/death. Storage means I can store my own electrons instead of selling them for pennies to the grid, and also means potentially having to source fewer electrons FROM the grid at night or during lower light. I think if I can get 4000 kw-yr, I can likely need very little from the utility. Last year I clocked 6006
ShawnG said:
Very interested in a DIY system, mostly because my electric bill is high.
Interesting that one of my motivations is that my electric bill is low. I think I can nearly eliminate the kWh from the grid with a pretty simple setup. The problem I have is that (since I'm staying on-grid), I'll still have the delivery/maintenance/account fees with the utility.
Stampie said:
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Have you worked the numbers to see what you need? The people giving quotes did they quote how many watts in panels or did they just say it'll meet you needs? I'll give you my example that I'm in the middle of doing.
Current house 1950s build very inefficient. I average about 30kwh a day. My new build is going to be very efficient but I like over kill so I'm designing the new system to the old house usage. I'm off grid so I have to have battery. That's not a requirement for you. Just equipment wise I have ten 440 watt panels and stackable inverters that will do 220v and 6kw. Very basic system for the home. I can add more inverters if I need to or more panels. I don't have the bill in front of me but that came in around $3k. How much of that 30kw a day can it cover? Let's do the math.
440watts x 10 x 6 hours sun a day = 26.4kwh a day
I'm conservative so I plan 4 hours of sun a day.
440watts x 10 x 4 hours sun a day = 17.6kwh a day
As you can see I'll need more panels when I finish my build.
I'd suggest doing the research of how much you need first. Do a system that'll lower your bill but not cover it all. You're not going to get rich selling solar power. Add on later if you need to.
I got my stuff from https://signaturesolar.com/. They were good to deal with other than they don't understand opt out of all emails.
I haven't broken it down by day, but "the solar company" and I did the math together. Last year I clocked 6006 kWh. If they maxed the good space on my roof, they were going to put 5600 kWh-year worth of panels. Once I ditch the electric stove for a gas range, the only large draw in the house will be the water heater and A/C.
I'm hoping that with some economization, some better insulation, and smarter choices, I can slow the meter significantly.... which is both a benefit to my wallet, as well as hugging trees.
Antihero said:
In reply to STM317 :
It's totally doable to have a small system but it means you have to conserve energy and bluntly......most won't.
I was just thinking as I'm sitting here, I should turn off the TV behind me.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
What's the size of your good roof area?
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I'm not even comparing to the DIY, I'm trying to understand what the labor cost is for a $40k system. Even installing a new meter- we've got two of them, installed when we put in the garage and AC- neither were $1000 in labor. A solar set up is a small deviation from a nominal one- not a massive increase of skill.
The best part of all the DIY work out there is that you can see exactly what components you need. So you can go out and price the best parts out there and compare with the bids you get.
And I don't see it as DIY when you buy all the components and have licensed professionals install it.
SV reX
MegaDork
1/6/24 3:30 p.m.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
If your usage is REALLY low, do you even need solar to be off-grid?
My cabin has been off grid for over 25 years. I have no solar. Various batteries, propane heat, lanterns, a wood burning stove, and an occasional use of the generator, and I'm really ok.
Im sure that wouldn't suffice for a full time house, but I think it can go a long way to cutting your needs and enabling you to use a truly small solar system.
Stampie said:
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
What's the size of your good roof area?
I'll estimate 550 sf total. The garage is another 300, but it's a 12/12 pitch running N/S so a little tougher to get the south angle I want. Also the garage is half shaded.
This is what the company sent along based on satellite. Looks like fourteen 400-w panels on surfaces 2, 3, and 6. The 2 and 6 makes sense since they are south and west. 3 won't get much sun until afternoon.
alfadriver said:
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I'm not even comparing to the DIY, I'm trying to understand what the labor cost is for a $40k system. Even installing a new meter- we've got two of them, installed when we put in the garage and AC- neither were $1000 in labor. A solar set up is a small deviation from a nominal one- not a massive increase of skill.
The best part of all the DIY work out there is that you can see exactly what components you need. So you can go out and price the best parts out there and compare with the bids you get.
And I don't see it as DIY when you buy all the components and have licensed professionals install it.
... and you know that when you have crews who do nothing but installs 5 days a week, 10 hours a day, it doesn't take them long. I remember when Bath Fitter came to do mom and dad's tub/shower, they weren't in the building for more than an hour and a half. That would have taken me two days. They're like an F1 pit crew.
SV reX said:
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
If your usage is REALLY low, do you even need solar to be off-grid?
My cabin has been off grid for over 25 years. I have no solar. Various batteries, propane heat, lanterns, a wood burning stove, and an occasional use of the generator, and I'm really ok.
Im sure that wouldn't suffice for a full time house, but I think it can go a long way to cutting your needs and enabling you to use a truly small solar system.
It's my full-time house, but because I live alone and work too much, I don't spend very much time here. I'm also gone two months in the summer
I do have access to a 3500w natural gas generator for free (an old one at work that used to power egress lights back in the 80s). I doubt I can switch much more to NG since my gas supply is just a 3/4" pipe. I think I could safely do a stove, but not likely a water heater. I also haven't done the math on how much NG and its price/cu-ft it would cost to generate all of my own electrons.
I would also have to research local laws. I know in some places, you can't build a house on a lot that doesn't have utilities. I don't know if I'm in one of those places, nor do I know if it applies to old construction. I'd have to find out if I could just cancel my account with the utility.
I will also say, there is a certain stress relief of knowing that I'm connected to the grid. It has proven to be super-reliable. I can imagine coming home to my DIY generator/battery setup to find that the generator seized or a squirrel chewed a wire and my pipes are frozen and my freezer isn't.
Dad has an off-grid hunting cabin. It just has one car battery and one 100w panel. Woodstove, outhouse, a radio, and some LED lights are fine there. I'm not sure I'm ready to have times without juice, so maybe staying on-grid would be best. I think what I'm trying to do is make the grid my backup/supplement system instead of my primary.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
So 3 is sloped away from south? Doing the hour wise thing (my assumption was all panels facing south) that's only 2.43 hours a day. I'm sure they have calculations for gloomy days and you get a lot more than we do down south. If you are maxing out your roof then I'd try to get higher wattage panels. 405 isn't bad but 5-10% more would be 5-10% more. Why did they not move a panel from 3 to 2 to take advantage of the better roof?
ShawnG
MegaDork
1/6/24 5:03 p.m.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:
ShawnG said:
Very interested in a DIY system, mostly because my electric bill is high.
Interesting that one of my motivations is that my electric bill is low. I think I can nearly eliminate the kWh from the grid with a pretty simple setup. The problem I have is that (since I'm staying on-grid), I'll still have the delivery/maintenance/account fees with the utility.
I'd love to be able to use less electricity but it would mean changing or upgrading a ton of things. We currently have:
Electric range.
Electric dryer.
Electric water heater.
Electric heat in the propagation house for the veg garden.
Electric heat in my shop, supplemented with wood heat.
Refrigeration for our walk-in cooler.
Wife's electric glass kiln.
Heated trough for the horses.
Pumps for our well and water treatment system.
Plus, our house was built in the 60s and hasn't really been updated much. It has insulation, two layers of R20 in the attic but no idea what's in the walls, other than they're 2x4 walls so probably R12 at best.
My big fear in committing the $$$ to a solar system (just paying my electric bill in advance) is, if the panels are supposed to last 25 years, what if they don't? LED bulbs are supposed to last forever and they sometimes don't. CFLs were supposed to last forever and they didn't. Lots of these solar companies claim "30 year warranty" and such but they're out of business in less than 5.
Seems like there's a ton of opportunity for snake-oil salesmen in that industry still. DIY might eliminate some of it.
I'd be thinking of a ground mounted array, my roof is shaded and roofs don't leak unless you put holes in them.
In reply to ShawnG :
If you're worried about the warranty, that's all about choosing your supplier. Also, panels are like batteries - they don't just stop working, they lose effectiveness. So even a failing out of warranty panel is still doing something. Inverters etc, obviously, are different.
Stampie said:
Why did they not move a panel from 3 to 2 to take advantage of the better roof?
My only guess is that it's because that section of roof is almost flat with a rubber membrane.
alfadriver said:
In reply to STM317 :
Those are depressing maps. Not because of the low numbers from our area- but what they really mean- lots and lots of clouds.
And now you know why I need to move. It's been 6 days since we've had a clear sunny day here, and the forecast for the next 10 isnt promising.
In reply to ShawnG :
I can think of:
Electric range, which is soon to be gas
water heater, which I think needs to stay electric because I have a 3/4" gas supply
dryer (but living alone, it gets used once a week)
microwave
lighting (duh)
1-ton A/C that remains unused for two months while I'm away, and honestly I don't mind being hot
TV/Home theater
Most of that can't be changed to gas, nor would I really be offsetting fossil fuel use if I put oil lamps and candles up instead of LED bulbs. The choice to go gas range is because I love to cook and I HATE electric stovetops.
ShawnG
MegaDork
1/6/24 7:52 p.m.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Last house we were in had a gas water heater and gas furnace, both fed by a 3/4" line for whatever that's worth.
Probably comes down to the volume that the gas company supplies.
In reply to ShawnG :
Good to know. I would just have to math some things. It seems counterintuitive to me to replace my fossil-fuel-based electricity with burning fossil fuels in my house. Can't imagine I'd feel like I'm hugging very many trees that way.
It sounds like you don't use much electricity and have low rates, so your bills are low. How much are you paying per month? The calculations to figure out of it's economically feasible are pretty easy if you have all the numbers. It sounds like there is not a good financial benefit to going solar for you, but you want the ecological benefit without having to take a big financial hit. As you have discovered, that's not likely with the cost of paying for a full install. It's not fair or accurate to add up materials cost and labor and decide that's what a professional installer "should" charge. A big part of their job is selling, so some of that cost goes towards their sales force. They also have to warranty their work, and insurance is expensive for companies that work on roofs. Plus like everyone else, they want to make some money for their work.
You can cut all of that out with with DIY. The install itself is not tough. Use quality roofing attachments and follow the instructions, that is where most installs go wrong. Stick with manufacturers with good track records. Don't count on any warranties, the manufacturer is likely to be long out of business by the time you make a warranty claim. Buy a good product that is less likely to have a problem in the first place. The hardest part is coordinating with your utility provider and AHJ to make sure that you meet all of the requirements for net metering. It sounds like permitting is easy in your area, but you also need to work with the utility. If your situation doesn't pencil out with net metering, it will definitely not with off grid. The good news is materials prices are dropping. The market is slowing and distributors are getting rid of excess inventory. There were big shortages due to supply chain problems, and they are catching up on backlogged orders just as the market cools, so it's a good time to buy.
I'm usually against PPA's, but in your case it might make sense. But I'd be a bit surprised if a company thought you were a good candidate. If there is no payback for you, there isn't for them either. But keep in mind there are downsides if you ever want to sell your house.
In PA can't you just buy from a 3rd party electricity supplier that's supplying via wind/solar? I know out our way that's an option but in my locale we're mostly nuke/hydro anyway, with just a little peaking via gas turbine.
bobzilla said:
alfadriver said:
In reply to STM317 :
Those are depressing maps. Not because of the low numbers from our area- but what they really mean- lots and lots of clouds.
And now you know why I need to move. It's been 6 days since we've had a clear sunny day here, and the forecast for the next 10 isnt promising.
That's why I left Michigan. Got tired of not seeing the sun for weeks on end, and not seeing a truly blue sky for months on end. Moved to florida and it's sunny almost every day. Now, when it's cloudy we say "oh man, it's Michigan out there".
ShawnG
MegaDork
1/8/24 9:27 a.m.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to ShawnG :
Good to know. I would just have to math some things. It seems counterintuitive to me to replace my fossil-fuel-based electricity with burning fossil fuels in my house. Can't imagine I'd feel like I'm hugging very many trees that way.
Where I am, natural gas is much cleaner than the coal they burn for electricity.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Well if it helps you feel better, Taylor Swift's private jet cuts down more trees every year than your whole town could possibly hug in a decade.
I too have been wanting to do a home solar system for quite some time too; The knowledge is everywhere, used panels are cheap, and everything until you get to your electrical panel can basically be DIY'ed at safe voltages by anyone who wants to learn. I've kept thinking about building a 24-48V system just for my own screwing around and to power constant things like my refrigerator or desktop PC.
Tell me about these two circled locations- are they yours? Could you put panels there? Ground-based ones, particularly ones that can follow the sun, are the easiest and cheapest to do and generate from and you could also do something like a solar pergola.
Also it's worth it to discuss the differences between MPPT and inverters; MPPTs can be built more efficient than inverters but will only run DC. Also lots of the inverter parts and things off Amazon- PwMR brand in particular- are terrible and should be avoided so You have to ask about specific brands.
