Salanis wrote: If the difficulties this country faced were simple ones with simple answers, we'd have solved them by now.
I think the better idiot quote fits in there too..
Salanis wrote: If the difficulties this country faced were simple ones with simple answers, we'd have solved them by now.
I think the better idiot quote fits in there too..
93EXCivic wrote:Salanis wrote: If the difficulties this country faced were simple ones with simple answers, we'd have solved them by now.Never have true words been spoken except maybe "sex is fun" or "beer is good".
And people will argue about retarded crap, that doesn't mean a thing because they cant change anything, and wouldn't even if they could. Or something.
Joey
Salanis wrote: If the difficulties this country faced were simple ones with simple answers, we'd have solved them by now.
That's a good point.
93EXCivic wrote:Salanis wrote: If the difficulties this country faced were simple ones with simple answers, we'd have solved them by now.Never have true words been spoken except maybe "sex is fun" or "beer is good".
So is that.
HiTempguy wrote:Duke wrote: I'm a professional and as such there is NO professional union whatsoever in my industry, of course. Yet, magically, I have benefits. It's not uncommon, even in my field, which is notorious for using entry-level workers fairly ruthlessly.I like your focus on "benefits". That's reallllly not the point of this discussion.
It most certainly IS. I was told I wouldn't have benefits if it weren't for unions. Which is patently untrue.
And far from being "irreplaceable", I am quite easily replaceable - particularly in this economy. I already stated that earlier. Yet I still have a job, benefits, and I got a bonus this year. Without a union.
Duke wrote: It most certainly IS. I was told I wouldn't have benefits if it weren't for unions. Which is patently untrue.
No, it really isn`t. Way back in the day, unions helped make something (benefits) standard. As was stated, it's not like companies just decided to start giving money away. Sure, there probably were enterprising individuals that offered packages through work in the form of benefits, but probably not many.
So, uh, yea... keep on hatin' though. On this forum alone, we've had many threads of poor treatment of professionals. Lucky for you, you work in a non-hostile work environment with employers that get it. Congrats!
HiTempguy wrote:Duke wrote: It most certainly IS. I was told I wouldn't have benefits if it weren't for unions. Which is patently untrue.No, it really isn`t. Way back in the day, unions helped make something (benefits) standard. As was stated, it's not like companies just decided to start giving money away. Sure, there probably were enterprising individuals that offered packages through work in the form of benefits, but probably not many. So, uh, yea... keep on hatin' though. On this forum alone, we've had many threads of poor treatment of professionals. Lucky for you, you work in a non-hostile work environment with employers that get it. Congrats!
Depends on what benefits you are talking about.
If you are referring to health insurance, I think that's mostly down to WWII salary freezes, unless I'm misremembering my history.
In reply to Datsun1500:
Why do you hate America?
In reply to fast_eddie_72:
It depends what kind of pie. If he's calling for Apple pie, he doesn't hate America. If it's steak and kidney pie, clearly he does.
93EXCivic wrote:Salanis wrote: If the difficulties this country faced were simple ones with simple answers, we'd have solved them by now.Never have true words been spoken except maybe "sex is fun" or "beer is good".
Good beer leads to fun sex.
Salanis wrote: In reply to fast_eddie_72: It depends what kind of pie. If he's calling for Apple pie, he doesn't hate America. If it's steak and kidney pie, clearly he does.
what about chicken pot pies?
mad_machine wrote:Salanis wrote: In reply to fast_eddie_72: It depends what kind of pie. If he's calling for Apple pie, he doesn't hate America. If it's steak and kidney pie, clearly he does.what about chicken pot pies?
cheap, frozen, zap 'em pot pies are the new America
Duke wrote:HiTempguy wrote:It most certainly IS. I was told I wouldn't have benefits if it weren't for unions. Which is patently untrue. And far from being "irreplaceable", I am *quite easily* replaceable - particularly in this economy. I already stated that earlier. Yet I still have a job, benefits, and I got a bonus this year. Without a union.Duke wrote: I'm a professional and as such there is NO professional union whatsoever in my industry, of course. Yet, magically, I have benefits. It's not uncommon, even in my field, which is notorious for using entry-level workers fairly ruthlessly.I like your focus on "benefits". That's reallllly not the point of this discussion.
What exactly do consider the AIA to be, then? Professional workers don't typically have unions, but they do have professional organizations that are intended to advocate for them. A labor union as you're defining it isn't applicable to your situation, most architects have autonomy that a typical worker does not. The AIA isn't a union, but it does set the standards for professional licensure and client contracts, etc. It just isn't a very strong organization, and it isn't very effective at advocating for its members, which might help explain why most architects get paid half what they would expect to be paid with similar qualifications, education, and experience in nearly any other professional field.
Also, and I'm sure you realize this, but your argument is similar to someone who shows up at the emergency room, gets treated, and concludes that nobody needs health insurance because he still got treated and he doesn't have any. The reason you get what you do is that it's the cultural standard for worker compensation, and if there were no form of collectivized advocacy for workers, it's unlikely that standard would exist.
And just to clarify, I don't think unions are wonderful organizations that can do no wrong. I just recognize that they are a necessary variable in a balanced equation.
Salanis wrote: In reply to fast_eddie_72: It depends what kind of pie. If he's calling for Apple pie, he doesn't hate America. If it's steak and kidney pie, clearly he does.
I had a chance to order steak and kidney pie in an 'authentic English pub' in Atlanta. I just could not get past the name. 
Steak, yes. Pie, yes. Kidney??? Uh, lemme get back to you on that.
Josh wrote: What exactly do consider the AIA to be, then? Professional workers don't typically have unions, but they do have professional organizations that are intended to advocate for them. A labor union as you're defining it isn't applicable to your situation, most architects have autonomy that a typical worker does not. The AIA isn't a union, but it does set the standards for professional licensure and client contracts, etc. It just isn't a very strong organization, and it isn't very effective at advocating for its members, which might help explain why most architects get paid half what they would expect to be paid with similar qualifications, education, and experience in nearly any other professional field.
As an architect, I find the AIA to be an organization of limited usefulness. To me their primary benefit has been the development of industry-standard forms and contracts. Other than that they are mostly useless. They don't actually set licensure standards, though they do lobby the various states to prevent unlicensed practice, and to stop PEs from poaching architectural work beyond incidental stuff that is subsidiary to engineering projects.
But one thing the AIA does NOT do is lobby for wage, benefit, or fee minimums - they don't have any power to do so. The members are independent businesses who can and do set their own fees, and the AIA does nothing to represent us or negotiate with owners on our behalf. Hell, half the time the AIA has to spend its efforts telling architects that they should quit trying to undercut each other. That's really the extent of the union-ish role they play.
The other thing that differs significantly is that as a non-member, there is no issue with me working for a member firm. Some of us here are members, some are not, and there is no issue with it, either personally or professionally.
My current bosses are both AIA members, because they own the business and there is public perception that "AIA = architect". All they effectively get for their hellacious dues is the right to use the AIA "brand", as it were, in their literature.
Curmudgeon wrote:Salanis wrote: In reply to fast_eddie_72: It depends what kind of pie. If he's calling for Apple pie, he doesn't hate America. If it's steak and kidney pie, clearly he does.I had a chance to order steak and kidney pie in an 'authentic English pub' in Atlanta. I just could not get past the name.
Having been at the table with someone eating a steak-and-kidney pie, I'm here to tell you that it literally smells like piss, too.
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