triumph5 wrote: THAT's a big topic here in Ct., Right now no sales anywhere--except bars and restaurants....The mom and pop stores are afraid sales of liquor at the grocery stores will cut into their sales so much, it'll be financially crippling, and for many, sales wouldn't pay the light bill.
How can that be?? There aren't any Baptists in CT!
poopshovel wrote: Still can't believe that state-wide support is only 52%, and I'm guessing nearly all of the opposition is coming from good ole' Glen Beck loving Republicans. Facepalm. Also, I'm guessing there's not a snowball's chance of my county supporting Sunday sales on a referendum, but my state senator did state via email that he strongly supported the bill.
It seems the vote didn't really follow party lines from what I've seen - there were Republicans voting for it and Democrats against it. And I'm not entirely sure where Glen Beck stands on the issue, but I suspect when he hops on the Paranoia Express, that things's locomotive could very well be alcohol fueled...
This thread is really biased.
There are 14 states that have blue laws and do not allow alcohol sales.
Of the top 20 states with the highest percentage of Southern Baptists, only 8 of them are among those 14.
That means that 6 states that are NOT on the list of the top 20 Baptist states prohibit Sunday alcohol sales.
It also means that 12 out of the top 20 Baptist states ALLOW Sunday alcohol sales.
If you care, I'm against the prohibition. However, I am MUCH MORE against the biases that want to blame the problem on the blankity-blank Baptists.
I don't mind beer. Why do so many people mind church?
ransom wrote: A significant difficulty as I see it is that the legislators listen to money and votes; Churches are able to assemble blocs of these things which are relatively coherent. I don't like the notion of having to organize an equivalent opposite to a church just to lobby to keep religion out of legislation. It makes sense for people who share a belief to form a church.
Gay lobby? Environmental lobby? Liberal activists? Unions?
You are right at some level, but nobody seems to care when black churches preach from the pulpit in favor of President Obama (or any other Democrat). See what they say if a Conservative candidate tries it.
Churches are just groups of like-minded individuals. I think they should be left alone.
And I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to organize an equivalent to the opposite.
SVreX wrote: I don't mind beer. Why do so many people mind church?
Thank you. I really resent the fact that people will fall over themselves to support gays, rapists, murderers, drug addicts, child molesters, and wife beaters, but they draw the line at people who are religious.
I attend church every once in a while, and I find that we talk about tolerance, and forgiveness, and charity, and community. When did these things become so reviled by society at large?
1988RedT2 wrote: Thank you. I really resent the fact that people will fall over themselves to support rapists, murderers, drug addicts, child molesters, and wife beaters, but they draw the line at people who are religious.
ftfy.
I just don't get the arguments against sunday liquour sales....
Just don't make no sense.
huge-O-chavez. 
Just what kind of movies have YOU been watching, Iggy??
1988RedT2 wrote:SVreX wrote: I don't mind beer. Why do so many people mind church?Thank you. I really resent the fact that people will fall over themselves to support gays, rapists, murderers, drug addicts, child molesters, and wife beaters, but they draw the line at people who are religious. I attend church every once in a while, and I find that we talk about tolerance, and forgiveness, and charity, and community. When did these things become so reviled by society at large?
Aside from the fact that no one even mentioned any of that other stuff, it is interesting that in your mind gays are at the same level as rapists/murderers/etc.
I have seen a few Southern Baptist preachers in favor of the law, but they're not as monolithic as it seems. About the only alcohol-related thing the Southern Baptists collectively agree on is that it's wrong to drink alcohol around people who refuse to do so, for the same reason you shouldn't order a big steak and make a big show of enjoying it when you're dining out with vegetarians.
This has led to some jokes such as "Why should you make sure to invite two or more Baptists on your fishing trip? Because if you only bring one, he'll drink all your beer."
The underlying rationale for this, though, isn't "Beer is bad and you should hide it if you drink it," so much as "Some people in the church may hold different beliefs on some issues, and you have to respect their beliefs." I know, this doesn't quite fit stereotypes of Baptists, but there's a fair amount of areas where they can and do agree to disagree.
Since that doesn't fit the "All they want to do is run my life" paradigm, you must be talking out of your ass Matt. 
SVreX wrote: This thread is really biased. There are 14 states that have blue laws and do not allow alcohol sales. Of the top 20 states with the highest percentage of Southern Baptists, only 8 of them are among those 14. That means that 6 states that are NOT on the list of the top 20 Baptist states prohibit Sunday alcohol sales. It also means that 12 out of the top 20 Baptist states ALLOW Sunday alcohol sales. If you care, I'm against the prohibition. However, I am MUCH MORE against the biases that want to blame the problem on the blankity-blank Baptists. I don't mind beer. Why do so many people mind church?
<---Bangs head repeatedly on desk. I'm not AGAINST church. I GO to church on a semi-regular basis. I want you to go to church 24 hours a day and seven berkeleying days a week if it makes you happy, as long as you're not infringing upon my god-given rights to life, liberty and property.
What I'm AGAINST is the idea of local, state, federal governments becoming religious theocracies. AGAIN, it's all happy and fun and "moral" until it's the berkeleying Muslims who make the rules.
And while I'm as far away as I possibly could be from being a berkeleying democrat, as I've said a hundred berkeleying times in this thread, the icing on the cake of all this is these supposed 'freedom-loving' Republicans who believe in individual responsibility and keeping government out of people's lives blahblahblah...until a certain segment of business owners want to sell their berkeleying product on the bloody politicians' sabbath.
If these worthless pieces of E36 M3 had a hair on their respective tiny balls, they'd come right out and say they support alcohol prohibition, and think that all stores should be closed on Sunday (or Saturday...whatever) in observation of the sabbath, and that violators will be stoned to death.
Is it really that berkeleying hard to understand? Does anybody seriously think that this is about keeping Christians from practicing their berkeleying religion. Christalmighty. I should probably go to church this Sunday.
In reply to poopshovel:
Except for some of the colorful embellishments, I'm with you a 110%, Poopie.
This isn't an issue of disrepecting a religious portion on the population; it's about a religious portion of the population disrespecting the rights of those who don't share the exact same values. And the final decision isn't even decided until counties and cities hold referendums and bring the matter to a vote. Tolerance and respect is a two-way proposition; you have to show some to receive some.
As for the negative effects on sellers who are normally closed on Sundays vs. those who are open but forbidden to sell, no one knows what the effect may be until an ordnance is even passed. Until then, get over it and get on with life - and do the same when/if the community allows you to finally make a choice that's best for you..........
oldsaw wrote: This isn't an issue of disrepecting a religious portion on the population; it's about a religious portion of the population disrespecting the rights of those who don't share the exact same values.
Well put.
RX Reven' wrote: Isn’t this almost entirely symbolic??? Unless you live paycheck to paycheck or have horrible planning skills, can’t you just stock up beforehand? I happen to be an exception though as I fly a lot to Minnesota and it’s always on a Sunday when they have the 3/2 restriction which, if you aren’t familiar, is where only beer can be sold and it’s a special mix where you need to drink 3 to get the effect of 2. Side note…I always stop at Super Target first thing when I’m in Minnesota to buy: three rolls of duct tape, three cans of baby powder, & three sets of dice as I use them as props to teach math. The cashiers always give me a somewhat weird look until I produce my California Driver’s License where they really look at me funny. Anyway, I find this 3/2 thing amusing as right across the boarder in Wisconsin, you’ll promptly be issued a hefty fine if you’re caught not drinking.
As my car clubs personal beer embassador (due to the fact that Hudson WI is literally a 15min drive for me) I can vouch for sunday sales in WI. MN is actually thinking of lifting the ban on Sunday sales, which only makes sense since they'd get our tax money instead of the sconnies. I'll still buy my fireworks in WI tho.
SVreX wrote: Churches are just groups of like-minded individuals. I think they should be left alone. And I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to organize an equivalent to the opposite.
My point is that I don't want to have to organize around my lack of religion. I want to work on my garage instead. I didn't set out to be an atheist, and it's become a bigger part of the definition of who I am than I ever wanted it to be. This has come about substantially because of the tendency of some (not all. heck, not many) church groups to try to legislate adherence to their tenets for everybody.
When we agree that you don't knife your neighbor for his riding mower, it doesn't matter much whether or not people attribute their aversion to knifery to a deity or not. But when we differ on whether or not it's okay to buy liquor on a Sunday, the arguments matter. If the only reason is one group's interpretation of the words of a particular deity, that strikes me as a separation of church and state issue.
It is certainly not black and white. We try to have laws to enforce what we as a people agree is right and wrong. We agree about a lot. We disagree about a fair bit, too. We certainly can't dismiss anybody's notion of right and wrong because it's formed in part by their faith. I tend to hope for leaving things to the individual and their immediate community where there is disagreement. By no means a perfect solution, but to keep it on-topic, it seems clear to me that not banning Sunday liquor sales allows people to continue doing what they feel is right individually, while banning it removes an option from people who have no reason not to buy liquor on Sunday, and there doesn't appear to be a sound, non-religious reason not to allow it, nor does allowing liquor sales really seem to impinge upon the lives of those against it. Obviously, the core of that last bit is why there was strife over this legislation, and that's far from the most contentious example of this type of problem...
Can't buy hard liquor on Sunday in TN either, but I'd never notice because I'm always pretty well stocked. If you don't keep enough on hand to get through one day you need to man up!
In reply to Cotton:
This point has been raised a lot. Yes, it is absolutely the easiest and most pragmatic approach to having liquor on Sunday if you can't buy it then. And even not having liquor on hand if you forget to buy it on Saturday is hardly the end of the world.
The conversation is about whether it makes any sense to legislate something like this, the root of the legislation, and how a bunch of people who don't agree on every facet of how to live life can work out a rulebook that keeps everybody reasonably happy.
The results of that discussion may help us all to work out how to handle stuff that's a lot more important than my liquor cabinet (which with the recent addition of a bottle of rum for Dark and Stormys [fresh ginger is the key] is not likely to need a Sunday top-up anytime soon).
There is one aspect of this issue that it seems hasn't been discussed yet. If a retail establishment is to be open on Sunday, then it follows that someone is going to have to work on Sunday. It is for this reason that I support "blue laws" in general, not just for liquor sales. I believe that ALL retail should be closed on Sunday, and those who might otherwise be working can spend the day at home with their families, drinking liquor they had the foresight to buy the day before. 
Hmm...maybe Illinois isn't as berkleyed up as it seems.
Wait...yup...still is. 
SVreX wrote: huge-O-chavez.
naaa.. The other day I was called an enemy of the united states, like Hugo Chavez, because of my beliefs..
So.. Thats my name.
In reply to 1988RedT2:
For many people there is nothing sacred about Sundays. For many people for whom there is theoretically something sacred about Sundays, there still isn't anything practically sacred about Sundays.
From a practical standpoint, having a retail place closed on Sundays effectively means that only the few people who manage to get Saturday or Monday off get a contiguous weekend. Doesn't sound like doing the employees a favor to me...
Ah ha, that explains it. You radical...lol
aussiesmg wrote: Ah ha, that explains it. You radical...lol
Yeah.. On this board no less.. HA!
poopshovel wrote:SVreX wrote: This thread is really biased. There are 14 states that have blue laws and do not allow alcohol sales. Of the top 20 states with the highest percentage of Southern Baptists, only 8 of them are among those 14. That means that 6 states that are NOT on the list of the top 20 Baptist states prohibit Sunday alcohol sales. It also means that 12 out of the top 20 Baptist states ALLOW Sunday alcohol sales. If you care, I'm against the prohibition. However, I am MUCH MORE against the biases that want to blame the problem on the blankity-blank Baptists. I don't mind beer. Why do so many people mind church?<---Bangs head repeatedly on desk. I'm not AGAINST church. I GO to church on a semi-regular basis. I want you to go to church 24 hours a day and seven berkeleying days a week if it makes you happy, as long as you're not infringing upon my god-given rights to life, liberty and property. What I'm AGAINST is the idea of local, state, federal governments becoming religious theocracies. AGAIN, it's all happy and fun and "moral" until it's the berkeleying Muslims who make the rules. And while I'm as far away as I possibly could be from being a berkeleying democrat, as I've said a hundred berkeleying times in this thread, the icing on the cake of all this is these supposed 'freedom-loving' Republicans who believe in individual responsibility and keeping government out of people's lives blahblahblah...until a certain segment of business owners want to sell their berkeleying product on the bloody politicians' sabbath. If these worthless pieces of E36 M3 had a hair on their respective tiny balls, they'd come right out and say they support alcohol prohibition, and think that all stores should be closed on Sunday (or Saturday...whatever) in observation of the sabbath, and that violators will be stoned to death. Is it really that berkeleying hard to understand? Does anybody seriously think that this is about keeping Christians from practicing their berkeleying religion. Christalmighty. I should probably go to church this Sunday.
Come on, Poopie. You know me better than that.
I am completely in agreement with you, and didn't say otherwise. I said the thread was biased. I did NOT say Poopie was against the church, nor a thing about Christians practicing their religion.
I said the thread was biased, and the facts are that Baptists aren't to blame for blue laws (although there were plenty of people (not you) cussing them out and blaming them).
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