Take your AWD on a 4X4 road and get up to a $5000 fine from the Dept of the Interior?

Apparently, that is the case for the Southeast Utah Group of the National Park Service. If you drive your Subaru Crosstrek or other low clearance AWD vehicle on a road listed as High Clearance Vehicles with 4-wheel drive required, you can expect a nasty letter from the park service. From what I've read they are tired of the low clearance vehicles leaving the roads to go around obstacles, break crossing the obstacles, and they are tired of having to send people out to rescue them. 

That's going to piss off the soft-road crowd for sure. 

Speaking as someone with a libertarian bent, I don't have a problem with that.

Those rules are set for practical reasons, both to preserve the environment around these roads, and to limit the amount of emergency services wasted rescuing unprepared idiots driving inappropriate vehicles.

Ok, so break the rules and there are consequences, seems reasonable. Seems odd to get pissed off when you are in the wrong.

Oh no- I broke the rules and now I'm in trouble? 

This is like the people I see on the police shows crowing about being under arrest saying they didn't do anything wrong as they have a whole gun store of stolies in the trunk. You wanna go offroad, buy the right E36 M3. I don't see Dodge Ram owners yelling at SCCA for not letting them mow down cones. 

I don't disagree, but playing devil's advocate, how about this guy? Should he get some consideration for being better prepared? 

This could get interesting at the fringe.  Buy the wrong Jeep Grand Cherokee and you could have an AWD model not a true 4x4.

In reply to Toyman! :

Is that a high ground clearance vehicle?  Yes.

Letter does not apply.

In reply to Duke :

But is AWD the same as 4-wheel drive? 

There are real trails in that area, not just little dirt roads with some ruts in them. It's also a landscape that doesn't heal quickly from self-made bypasses or damage due to recovery. The area has problems with people going in underprepared. And note that only six trails in the whole district are called out. UTVs, ATVs and side by sides are also not allowed.
https://www.nps.gov/cany/planyourvisit/needlesroads.htm

W4RP1G, whoever that it, may have to accept that they built up a vehicle that will not be welcome everywhere. It's high(er) clearance, but unless there's been a drivetrain swap it's still AWD. Allowing it would open up the door for individual interpretation and grey areas that will just muddy the issue.

Toyman! said:

In reply to Duke :

But is AWD the same as 4-wheel drive? 

 

Is a stock Grand Cherokee considered high clearance or must it be "modified"?

Toyman! said:

In reply to Duke :

But is AWD the same as 4-wheel drive? 

 

It's not. I think the usual differentiation is a locking center diff or a lack of a center diff.

Base GC ground clearance is 8.8, Crosstek is 8.7

Seems like a grey area.

In reply to John Welsh :

Stock, the 22 GC has less ground clearance than the Crosstrek. Any of the off-road trims with the air suspension though, get it up to 11"+.

Keith Tanner said:

Toyman! said:

In reply to Duke :

But is AWD the same as 4-wheel drive? 

 

It's not. I think the usual differentiation is a locking center diff or a lack of a center diff.

Correct. So should the AWD count out the modded soft road crowd as well? 

I would think the all-wheel drive Ford Maverick would not qualify. But, what if I buy that Ford Maverick with the FX4 off-road package?

I dont love how its worded, but its obviously difficult to distill off road capabilities down to a simple regulation.  Are fines being dished out?  The letter seems like a warning shot, but I doubt the follow up with be a $5k fine.

When emergency vehicles are dispatched to recover people in these areas, are they already charged a fine?

Toyman! said:

Keith Tanner said:

Toyman! said:

In reply to Duke :

But is AWD the same as 4-wheel drive? 

 

It's not. I think the usual differentiation is a locking center diff or a lack of a center diff.

Correct. So should the AWD count out the modded soft road crowd as well? 

Yes, because it's AWD. And that has effects on traction when climbing the sort of rocky ledges and soft sand that are typical of this area. When I was doing my trail leader training in that area for the Land Rover National Rally, we  specifically discussed how to get the AWD Freelander through certain sections or if we should even try. 

I know this is meant to be a "let's all get upset at government overreach" thread, but the fact of the matter is that this area of Utah is pretty much a "do what you want to do" region but it doesn't suffer fools gladly. Trail damage, damage to the park, people suffering from heatstroke while stuck. The NPS is cracking down on this because they're tired of having to drag vehicles out of those trails with all the damage that involves.

If you want to modify a Crosstrek for backcountry use, there are many, many trails in that area that are BLM and not NPS. Go get it stuck there.

Based on the letter shown by the OP, it looks like they are going to go by what the manufacturer specified the vehicle as being. What all do they rely on for vehicle classification from what I assume is an image from a trail cam? What if you don't have plates on the car while running the trail how are they going to find you? 

Make me wonder about some of the purpose built buggies and how they get classified. 

edit. I like to watch some of the off-road recovery channels on YouTube. I have to imagine that the bill for hauling your AWD rental car out of the desert is punishment enough.

In reply to NOHOME :

Buggies are almost always based on something like a Wrangler with 4WD and very high clearance.

Note that you need a day pass to drive the trails in question. It's quite possible you have to supply your plate for that.

Duke said:

Speaking as someone with a libertarian bent, I don't have a problem with that.

Those rules are set for practical reasons, both to preserve the environment around these roads, and to limit the amount of emergency services wasted rescuing unprepared idiots driving inappropriate vehicles.

 

I don't mean to start an argument, but wouldn't the libertarian angle be to allow everyone to do whatever they want and let things sort themselves out?

On a separate note, they could also charge to the high-heavens every time someone needs to be extracted. I remember in the forests near Mono lake in Nevada a dumb-ass running his 4wd pickup into the middle of a pristine meadow and getting bogged down.  Nobody would help him because he was making us all look bad and increased the chances of us getting banned altogether. The forest service helicoptered his truck out and sent him a bill which might have cost as much as the truck itself. Good riddance.

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

I interpreted that as "Even though I'm libertarian, and generally think we should just let people do what they want, this is a reasonable rule to follow and I have no issue with the enforcement of it."

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

I don't mean to start an argument, but wouldn't the libertarian angle be to allow everyone to do whatever they want and let things sort themselves out?

The libertarian angle would be that the the government shouldn't be in the business of running parks, and that once the land is privately owned it's up to owners to decide what the rules are.

Out of curiousity, does a limited slip center diff count as a "locker"?  Would an original Quattro count? :)

1)  How are EVs gonna be rated?  Are they a weird grey area?

2) what about the god awful massive diesel overlander rigs that are too damned big and too heavy for these trails and get stuck as a result?

Keith Tanner said:

I know this is meant to be a "let's all get upset at government overreach" thread,

I am curious why you think this. 

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

A limited slip allows slip.
So by definition, it is not a locker.