frenchyd said:In reply to infinitenexus :
America has to get over the idea that everything is a profit center and the only thing that is important is this quarters statement.
I agree with that 100%. It seems EVERYTHING is profit-driven in America, even when it's detrimental. I truly wish things were better.
In reply to Duke :
If the banks weren't making bank, they wouldn't be making the loans. They aren't making the loans for the good of the student.
Also, many loans are federally guaranteed. The bank get's their 4% and if they go into default, the feds will pay them off. They can't lose.
In reply to infinitenexus :
I don't think we are miles apart on this. I believe that investing in education is important for a nation (also to Beer Barron's point). My only issue is the concept of wiping out debt for some and not others and who is chosen and why.
I knew I didn't have the talent for a purely artistic career. I actually strongly considered a career in graphic design, but I figured that architecture had better employment prospects, and it spanned a spectrum between artistic and technical, so it offered more options.
I knew I was going into a field with mediocre pay prospects - no matter what you may see in all the various movies where they need a generically well-off professional character, most architects don't tend to make a ton of money, and the hours can suck. I've been working full time in my professional capacity for almost 35 years, and I don't make 6 figures or have any employer health benefits.
The field is also something of a canary in the coal mine of the economy. As soon as there's any real downturn, any unbuilt project gets put on hold. And good luck getting a developer to pay you everything they owe you for a project they're not making any money on, even though you've already done your work. That last part, admittedly, is something only learned through experience.
I made mistakes in choosing my college education. I went to a private school that didn't offer a professional degree program, which meant I needed 3 years of graduate school to get a Masters before I would be eligible for professional licensure. For 7 years of college I could have been a doctor or a lawyer and started out making nearly what I'm making now.
I could have gone to my state university (which is actually pretty good for my field) and gotten a professional degree in only 5 years, at lower cost per year. I didn't. That was a mistake, but it's one that I overcame. I also didn't overcome it with any particular help from the names of the two (relatively) prestigious private universities I attended, which never heavily figured into my job prospects. Like I said, I'm not immune to mistakes.
But I own them and I overcame them.
The biggest issue is the costs of the schools now vs 30 years ago, so what changed? It used to be hard to qualify for loans, so tuition needed to be reasonable, or no one would go. At some point it became "not fair" to be denied for a loan because "everyone deserved a chance". Well, when everyone can get a loan, schools can charge whatever they want because it will be covered by that loan. That's the real issue, make loans hard and watch tuition go down.
In reply to NY Nick :
What the economists said in the link I posted was that the most beneficial path would be to forgive the student loan debts of low-income people only. I think I agree with that. However, I think solving that issue would take many other things--student loans should have the interest rates capped, also. If education is important and we want to encourage it, cap the interest rate at 2%.
I'm still a fan of how universities are in Germany: free. Sadly, I have a bad feeling that America will go in the opposite direction, and when my son is looking at college options he'll see average tuition prices of 100K+ for a bachelor's.
You can't compare the US to any European country that offers free education. It's not free, it's paid for in substantially higher taxes than we pay. As a society, the US *never* wants to pay higher taxes, for *anything*, regardless of how much of a universal benefit it is.
Here in Colorado none of the school taxes ever get approved, we're 49 out of 50 states as far as education funding goes. Until Americans as a whole decide that they're willing to pay more in taxes, free college isn't happening...
Toyman! said:In reply to Duke :
Also, many loans are federally guaranteed. The bank get's their 4% and if they go into default, the feds will pay them off. They can't lose.
I have already made as much of a comment as I can get away with concerning the Guaranteed Student Loan program and its direct impact on the cost of tuition.
In reply to Duke :
Uh, you've already talked about it a few times and it's pretty easy to draw a direct line from that policy to higher tuition costs. But debating the solutions is probably not possible without this thread falling back to partisan politics, and that's not what this forum is for.
docwyte said:You can't compare the US to any European country that offers free education. It's not free, it's paid for in substantially higher taxes than we pay.
You also can't compare Germany to the US:
Seriously, what works in Germany or France is not going to work in the US, and it's not just because we're babies and don't want to.
Tom Suddard said:In reply to Duke :
Uh, you've already talked about it a few times and it's pretty easy to draw a direct line from that policy to higher tuition costs. But debating the solutions is probably not possible without this thread falling back to partisan politics, and that's not what this forum is for.
Noted.
Also understand, I'm not into partisan politics. I haven't voted for either a Republican or a Democrat above the state level, ever, and I have voted for both locally, and I have voted in every election since I turned 18 in 1983. My dogs never even make it into that fight.
Beer Baron said:
Sometimes those "useless" degrees turn out to be invaluable. My personal path has been very well served by having a BA in English and a formal Brewmaster certification. My liberal arts education has been invaluable taking on higher-level management and leadership roles at a company - having the technical ability to make stuff, and the artistic understanding of conveying a concise message to a target audience.
First degree was in English/Spanish literature. Second was in Electrical engineering. The lit degrees combined with languages allowed me to take the engineering to places I could not have otherwise gone. Subject matter research and communication was more of a liberal arts skill than an engineering skill. I also learned to hire engineers who could communicate effectively.
At the risk of floundering this thread, it has always amazed me how when cells transfer from being embryo to citizen, the nation loses all interest in the life form.
docwyte said:You can't compare the US to any European country that offers free education. It's not free, it's paid for in substantially higher taxes than we pay. As a society, the US *never* wants to pay higher taxes, for *anything*, regardless of how much of a universal benefit it is.
Here in Colorado none of the school taxes ever get approved, we're 49 out of 50 states as far as education funding goes. Until Americans as a whole decide that they're willing to pay more in taxes, free college isn't happening...
Most sources I found regarding spending per capita on education shows the US as one of the highest for the entire world. One source stated 2nd in the world in spending yet "lacking academically".
As a fiscal conservative, it is illogical to increase taxes to increase funding for something that already has excessive yet unproductive spending. Taking any politics out of it, we all know there is a point with a car that it isn't worth throwing the money at anymore. Not to say we should completely eliminate public education (personally fine by me), but don't spend more because it isn't working right.
Now, as far as I could tell, that was just primary or k-12 education that I saw spending on. College is a whole other mess. The federally guaranteed student loans that EVERYONE can get (like banks being forced to give mortgages to people who weren't ready for them) leads to a hugely overpriced system for all. Colleges will take every penny they can get (and it is there because the government says you have to make it available...backed up by the government) and they will spend it.
Look, I understand the reality. I have daughters that are 30 something and 20 something.
One took a degree in anthropology. That isn't what I thought she would excel in (or make money doing) but that was what she was interested in studying, and it wasn't my choice to make for her. Once she made that decision, I assumed she would go to graduate school and then happily work in academia forever. That isn't what happened and certainly the direct employment prospects for a liberal arts degree in anthropology are not the hot ticket.
But she's put her college education (if not her actual degree) to good use, she's expanding her skill set all the time, she has a decent paying job with decent benefits, and she's already paid off her student loans.
My other daughter took a degree in psychology, and it took her 5 years to get through 4 years of college. She has a vague idea of what she wants to do but it's only vague, and in the meantime, she hasn't managed to find something serious to do. It's fine of she doesn't ever find something 'serious', but she's still carrying her student debt. Once she figures it out - or once the reality starts getting a little more real - I have no doubt she'll get in gear. But I don't think she's going to do that until she feels a little more pressure.
My own flesh and blood would directly benefit from student loan forgiveness. She is low-income and would undoubtedly qualify. I still don't think that it's the right thing to do.
Duke said:Seriously, what works in Germany or France is not going to work in the US, and it's not just because we're babies and don't want to.
But it isn't just Germany or France. It's basically the entire EU, Canada, UK, Australia, Japan...
Every other developed nation I look at manages to find ways to make it work. Sure, the U.S. is unique and distinct. The model that would probably fit best won't look exactly like any other single nation. But there has got to be a way to do it.
The European model also (as I understand) involves a lot of testing and qualifying for those college spots (e.g. it's free, but not free for anyone to study anything). I am not sure that would fly in the US these days. Heck, they are getting rid of any sort of testing in some areas.
The European model is probably closer to the current US "free" model, which are specific grants and scholarships. It's free, but with strict (depending) conditions. So, it would seem, if you want a more European model, figure out how to ramp up the money in scholarships.
Duke said:docwyte said:You can't compare the US to any European country that offers free education. It's not free, it's paid for in substantially higher taxes than we pay.
You also can't compare Germany to the US:
- Population roughly 25% of the US
- Nearly homogenous culture
- Culture that historically and strongly emphasizes efficiency and productivity - c'mon, it's actually a trope
Seriously, what works in Germany or France is not going to work in the US, and it's not just because we're babies and don't want to.
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So try it in a quarter of the states. Work out flaws where people go and fail to learn things of value. ( Yes education should be paid for by society because society benefits). Heck that's exactly what most state colleagues were founded on. Paid for by tax payers so their sons could learn.
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Germany France etc are no longer homogenous. They have taken in massive immigrant populations. From Africa, The Middle East,Russia, etc. it's good for them. Their population was falling behind sustainability. And they learned from America the real value of immigrants. It takes ambition to leave your home country and everything you know for a better life for your children.
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Are you talking about France, England, Holland , Norway, Germany, Or what? I mean some of those scientists we got like Einstein etc were pretty academic.
Others like the English Buccaneer I came from were little more than pirates with a diploma from the queen. As for the French! Ha all they did was pay for America's experiment at the risk of losing their heads, Oh and showing Washington how to fight and win against the British.
In reply to aircooled :
Air cooled.
Tuition in European colleges can be as low as € 500 a year. Some are actually free. I looked very seriously at sending my daughters there. We could fly back and forth many many times on the savings.
I decided against it because of the language barrier and homesickness.
frenchyd said:In reply to aircooled :
Air cooled.
Tuition in European colleges can be as low as € 500 a year. Some are actually free.
They are not FREE. They are PAID FOR BY SOMEONE ELSE.
Please keep that in mind at all times. Thank you.
Whether or not that is a good investment is a legitimate subject for discussion. But it is disingenuous at absolute best to say they are "free".
frenchyd said:Germany France etc are no longer homogenous.
Ethnic / nationality breakdown of the US:
Rank Ethnicity Percentage of Population
1 German 14.70%
2 Black or African American (non-Hispanic) 12.30%
3 Mexican (of any race) 10.90%
4 Irish 10.60%
5 English 7.80%
6 American 7.20%
7 Italian 5.50%
8 Polish 3.00%
9 French 2.60%
10 Scottish 1.70%
11 Native American and Alaska Native 1.60%
12 Puerto Rican 1.60%
13 Norwegian 1.40%
14 Dutch 1.40%
15 Swedish 1.20%
16 Chinese 1.20%
17 Asian Indian 1.00%
18 Scotch-Irish 1.00%
19 Russian 0.90%
20 West Indian (non-Hispanic) 0.90%
21 Filipino 0.90%
Ethnic / nationality breakdown of Germany:
Rank Ethnicity Percentage of Population
1 German 87.2%
2 Turkish 1.8%
3 Polish 1%
4 Syrian 1%
5 Other 9%
French law prohibits the gathering of ethnic data by census, but estimates put the breakdown as roughly 75%-85% ethnically French, with the largest ethnic minority being North African, with corresponding percentages between 15%-30%.
In reply to Duke :
There aren't any Japanese?
what about all of us mixed race people?
Duke said:frenchyd said:Germany France etc are no longer homogenous.
Ethnic / nationality breakdown of the US:
Rank Ethnicity Percentage of Population
1 German 14.70%
2 Black or African American (non-Hispanic) 12.30%
3 Mexican (of any race) 10.90%
4 Irish 10.60%
5 English 7.80%
6 American 7.20%
7 Italian 5.50%
8 Polish 3.00%
9 French 2.60%
10 Scottish 1.70%
11 Native American and Alaska Native 1.60%
12 Puerto Rican 1.60%
13 Norwegian 1.40%
14 Dutch 1.40%
15 Swedish 1.20%
16 Chinese 1.20%
17 Asian Indian 1.00%
18 Scotch-Irish 1.00%
19 Russian 0.90%
20 West Indian (non-Hispanic) 0.90%
21 Filipino 0.90%
Ethnic / nationality breakdown of Germany:
Rank Ethnicity Percentage of Population
1 German 87.2%
2 Turkish 1.8%
3 Polish 1%
4 Syrian 1%
5 Other 9%
What is an American, if there is a separate category for Native American? And 13 of those categories are just generic white people.
Fun fact before a Federal loan is disbursed the federal government charges you a fee. Government and the subsidiaries that maintain the loans are making a lot of money. I think loan forgiveness will only happen for the people that are swindled by the for-profit schools that go under. Calling the student loan debt a crisis is just sensationalism, people signed up for it. The idea of loan forgiveness I believe to be just sensationalism. I imagine during the election they will pick another school to forgive the debt, pull back some of the interest and wait until they win to repeal or not renew it. When it comes to "free tuition" (Nothing is free taxpayers pay it) State of New York has a program, you have to qualify and of course get a big bill to live on campus. Some states are pushing for this, I think everyone is waiting for it to be unsuccessful so the politicians can say "I told you so".
Switching to a Europe based education system would not be easy. Having lived in two different states with kids below Kindergartens age, one of the pillars of Finland is preschool. Not all states fund a program and if they do they are centered on the 1950's of a married couple with one adult at home. The times are really wacky and you often have to pay for it (Mon-Thurs 12-3 and $1500). If that doesn't work then you are looking at daycare or a private school. We went with a private school, but eventually had to change because we could no longer afford it and because of Covid we were not paying for our child to sit in front of a Ipad for hours. 2nd important pillar of Finland is the low reliance on standardized testing. Standardized testing is Politics and big business together holding hands in the US, they love the metrics and everything is budget based. 3rd grade school is/was supposed to be a activity in socialization, but it has just become a big daycare, where students and parents act like fools. Going back to my point that teachers are leaving the field not because of debt but because they want to teach not babysit. Imagine how quick you would be fired if you took no responsibility for your actions and your parents called and complained to your Boss. It's crippling our youth. 4th social issues, Europe has some very homogenius areas and has a polite way of ignoring social issues.
One step in the right direction is Colleges are becoming less reliant on test scores and are focusing on GPA and outside activities which I think is more important. USA by far has the some of the best colleges/Universities in the world.
frenchyd said:In reply to Duke :
There aren't any Japanese?
what about all of us mixed race people?
Really? That's the point you chose to focus on?
Streetwiseguy said:Duke said:frenchyd said:Germany France etc are no longer homogenous.
Ethnic / nationality breakdown of the US:
Rank Ethnicity Percentage of Population
1 German 14.70%
2 Black or African American (non-Hispanic) 12.30%
3 Mexican (of any race) 10.90%
4 Irish 10.60%
5 English 7.80%
6 American 7.20%
7 Italian 5.50%
8 Polish 3.00%
9 French 2.60%
10 Scottish 1.70%
11 Native American and Alaska Native 1.60%
12 Puerto Rican 1.60%
13 Norwegian 1.40%
14 Dutch 1.40%
15 Swedish 1.20%
16 Chinese 1.20%
17 Asian Indian 1.00%
18 Scotch-Irish 1.00%
19 Russian 0.90%
20 West Indian (non-Hispanic) 0.90%
21 Filipino 0.90%
Ethnic / nationality breakdown of Germany:
Rank Ethnicity Percentage of Population
1 German 87.2%
2 Turkish 1.8%
3 Polish 1%
4 Syrian 1%
5 Other 9%
What is an American, if there is a separate category for Native American? And 13 of those categories are just generic white people.
That last sentence is incredibly racist.
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