Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:
Here's what I'm so confused about ideologically with ANY alternate "money".
Q: What is the fundamental purpose of money?
A: To provide a tool to allow 2 individuals to trade based on value and not on immediate need.
As anyone who has built a challenge car knows, it is much harder to find someone to trade a part you have with for a part you need than it is to just sell a part you have and buy a part you need from a different party. Similarly, 2000 years ago if I had goats but needed a loaf of bread, am I really going to trade a full goat for a single loaf? I can't really divide the goat up into small pieces easily, AND the person with bread may not need any goats at the moment. Which brings us to the fundamental question what is money?
Fundamentally, money is created when two people share a belief in it's value. If you think the silver coin is worth a goat and I think it is only worth a loaf of bread, it's not very useful to us to trade.
So, then the major problem with separate 'currencies' is they are still established in value ONLY by the USD. So what value are they adding?
And one step worse, is the value of the other 'currencies' fluctuate SO MUCH - how can 2 parties ever come to an agreed belief on what the value of the currency is or will be?
I guess my position is that crypto currencies are not money. The USD is still the money, and I just don't see how the crypto functions when you try to remove the real currency that establishes it's value. If we want to buy pizza with tulip bulbs, that's fine, but we can't fool ourselves into thinking we're somehow not using USD.
Infinite nexus, please respond to this post with some of your logical conclusions about how crypto is or can be a currency.
Specifically: can people generally agree on a value if you take out the USD? And
What value does a crypto add over USD?
When you are buying a stock you are buying a part of a company that may have factories, offices, employees with expertise and so on. It has a value. When you buy real estate, that has value if it could be used for housing or offices or factories and so on. Even gold has a value beyond it's speculative value in industrial uses. If all of a sudden people thought Shelby Cobras were no longer cool cars and the value dropped, a Shelby Cobra could still get me to work and be used as a car. It still has value.
A Bitcoin is a what again? A bunch of ones and zeros on a computer? That can be used for ....... ?
Some of these so called "Real-world financial experts" may have actually made their millions convincing people that ones and zeros on a computer are worth an insane amount of money. A very good con artist is still a con artist to me. Even a highly recommended one. Crypto Currencies have been very good for their bottom line because they are very good at selling the idea. Not because they have any value.
First they tell you it is too complicated for you to understand. Then they start the con.
Remember mortgage derivatives?
Penny stocks?
I knew guys who worked for Blinder Robinson when I lived in Denver back in the 80s.
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
That has got to be one of the worst analogies I've ever seen.
I've noticed a strong trend in people that are anti-cryptocurrency: They tend to know little to nothing about them and will swear that they're horrible investments, are worthless and have no place or point, etc. You can point out the massive returns over the past few years and that just gets ignored.
Meanwhile, we've got Fortunte 500 companies investing in cryptocurrency.
I agree. Some people have made a lot of money with cryptos.
And technically, investing is putting money into something with an expectation to make more money, so I can't totally argue with what you are saying, but it's still a stretch. That's a super loose definition. If I own a retail business that buys product wholesale and sells retail, I would fit that definition. If I picked up scrap metal and sold it for recycling, it would also fit that definition. But nobody would call either investing.
There is another fundamental important issue. It's what they are backed by. Dollars are backed by the US government. Bonds have a guaranteed future value in dollars. Stocks are not just a number on a trader's computer screen- they are an actual ownership stake in a company.
Cryptos are not backed by anything, and not tied to anything tangible. They generally literally don't even exist in physical space- only in electronic formats. I'm not saying that's good or bad, but it is clearly different than the vast majority of investments.
And they are definitely not a currency, as Driven5 has pointed out.
I've lived in foreign countries where personal checks drawn on US banks are more welcome than local currency, and credit cards are not accepted. It's interesting to see the back of a personal check that has been passed around and has 30 or more endorsement signatures on it. You would be a nut job to ever suggest a crypto in many of those places.
I think I would consider cryptos more like a trading commodity, like baseball cards or car parts, rather than an investment or a currency.
I'm glad it's working well for you.
In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :
So from your post, you agree that a stock is a sound investment, has value, etc. What I'm saying is there are highly successful people that run investment firms in the stock market and they recommend cryptocurrencies as well. The woman behind one of the best performing ETFs in the last few years is not a con artist, just because she also thinks Bitcoin is going to keep rising in value. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for some of you to grasp.
Too often I end up arguing with people that clearly detest something and then show they don't know much about it. Drives me nuts and it's not worth my time. What is worth my time is Ethereum, which has risen nearly 3% in the amount of time it took for these last dozen or so posts to be made. I'm just going to enjoy my profits.
infinitenexus said:
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
That has got to be one of the worst analogies I've ever seen.
I've noticed a strong trend in people that are anti-cryptocurrency: They tend to know little to nothing about them and will swear that they're horrible investments, are worthless and have no place or point, etc. You can point out the massive returns over the past few years and that just gets ignored.
Meanwhile, we've got Fortunte 500 companies investing in cryptocurrency.
I'm not anti-cryptos. My son owns some, and I gave him the money for them.
I am also not ill-informed. I've spent years researching them, and have chosen not to buy any.
Why do you think that makes me less smart?
infinitenexus said:
I've noticed a strong trend in people that are anti-cryptocurrency: They tend to know little to nothing about them and will swear that they're horrible investments, are worthless and have no place or point, etc. You can point out the massive returns over the past few years and that just gets ignored.
Meanwhile, we've got Fortunte 500 companies investing in cryptocurrency.
I've noticed a strong trend in people that are pro-cryptocurrency: They tend to know little to nothing about them and will swear they're the future of investing, are valuable as currencies and the best thing since sliced bread, etc. You can point out the gaps their arguments that you could fly a jumbo jet through and that just gets ignored.
Meanwhile, Fortune 500 companies are not 'investing' in crypto... They're hedging.
In reply to infinitenexus :
NOBODY in a legit investment firm has ever recommended swapping other investments for cryptos. That's a gross misrepresentation.
Some have suggested them as an enhancement to a balanced portfolio, kind of like precious metal investments. For people who can afford it. But never a majority stake.
Know who DOESN'T own any crypto?
Warren Buffet. Bill Gates. Jeff Bezos....
hmm...
infinitenexus said:
In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :
So from your post, you agree that a stock is a sound investment, has value, etc. What I'm saying is there are highly successful people that run investment firms in the stock market and they recommend cryptocurrencies as well. The woman behind one of the best performing ETFs in the last few years is not a con artist, just because she also thinks Bitcoin is going to keep rising in value. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for some of you to grasp.
Too often I end up arguing with people that clearly detest something and then show they don't know much about it. Drives me nuts and it's not worth my time. What is worth my time is Ethereum, which has risen nearly 3% in the amount of time it took for these last dozen or so posts to be made. I'm just going to enjoy my profits.
I'm not saying that you can't make lot's of money in crypto currencies. Some very highly respected people made money playing penny stocks and mortgage derivatives as well. But other people were left holding the bag. Why do you think that these "Real World Financial Experts" have your best interests at heart? When you get right down to it, everybody is just looking out for themselves.
infinitenexus said:
In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :
So from your post, you agree that a stock is a sound investment, has value, etc. What I'm saying is there are highly successful people that run investment firms in the stock market and they recommend cryptocurrencies as well. The woman behind one of the best performing ETFs in the last few years is not a con artist, just because she also thinks Bitcoin is going to keep rising in value. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for some of you to grasp.
Too often I end up arguing with people that clearly detest something and then show they don't know much about it. Drives me nuts and it's not worth my time. What is worth my time is Ethereum, which has risen nearly 3% in the amount of time it took for these last dozen or so posts to be made. I'm just going to enjoy my profits.?
Why argue with people at all then? Could it be that if people stop buying crypto currencies then yours would stop going up? You need to get more people on board that train or whole thing stops working. You need to believe or it all falls apart.
Interesting observation...
Cathie Wood is bullish on crypto, but her ETF fund ARK Invest does not appear to HOLD any. They have a 2.63% stake in Coinbase, but that's holding STOCK in the company, not holding the actual cryptocurrency.
Someone who knows this stuff better than me can chime in, but it sure looks like her investment in cryptocurrency is in holding stock in a company. That would mean a crypto recommendation on her part would truly be self-serving, because sales of the crypto would impact her portfolio's stock holdings.
...I guess they can't technically hold it. It's not an exchange traded fund.
Oh, maybe I found it...
ARK's Next Generation ETF fund has a 5.35% stake in Grayscale Bitcoin Trust. (Which still isn't holding crypto directly- it's holding it inside a trust, which is a safer way to hold it)
Its still only 5.35% of their holdings.
Internet pump n dump.
regulations after the correction.
mtn said:
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:
Here's what I'm so confused about ideologically with ANY alternate "money".
Q: What is the fundamental purpose of money?
A: To provide a tool to allow 2 individuals to trade based on value and not on immediate need.
As anyone who has built a challenge car knows, it is much harder to find someone to trade a part you have with for a part you need than it is to just sell a part you have and buy a part you need from a different party. Similarly, 2000 years ago if I had goats but needed a loaf of bread, am I really going to trade a full goat for a single loaf? I can't really divide the goat up into small pieces easily, AND the person with bread may not need any goats at the moment. Which brings us to the fundamental question what is money?
Fundamentally, money is created when two people share a belief in it's value. If you think the silver coin is worth a goat and I think it is only worth a loaf of bread, it's not very useful to us to trade.
So, then the major problem with separate 'currencies' is they are still established in value ONLY by the USD. So what value are they adding?
And one step worse, is the value of the other 'currencies' fluctuate SO MUCH - how can 2 parties ever come to an agreed belief on what the value of the currency is or will be?
I guess my position is that crypto currencies are not money. The USD is still the money, and I just don't see how the crypto functions when you try to remove the real currency that establishes it's value. If we want to buy pizza with tulip bulbs, that's fine, but we can't fool ourselves into thinking we're somehow not using USD.
Infinite nexus, please respond to this post with some of your logical conclusions about how crypto is or can be a currency.
Specifically: can people generally agree on a value if you take out the USD? And
What value does a crypto add over USD?
I second this.
Why are you both so concerned with my reply? I'm just here to enjoy Dogecoin but got sucked into a pointless debate. You seem to think I owe you a response. I'll respond to this and then I'm done arguing. I'm just here for Doge, and this has gotten wildly off topic. (btw mtn, I like your signature. Dolly is a gem.)
Cryptocurrencies are money. Some of them are accepted all over the world, and you can buy all sorts of things with them - as I pointed out earlier, you can buy a Rolls-Royce in Houston with Dogecoin. Or perhaps they aren't "money" but they are a new fluctuating medium with which to use USD. Could people agree on a value unique to each coin? I'm sure, but I feel like that's missing the point. Some of them have technologies - blockchain for example - that have real-world uses and value. You can invest in them similar to a stock, and many of them have proven to be fantastic investments. The big difference is that they're all digital and don't have anything physical backing them. If you're using them as an investment, who cares?
If I invest $1000 in Boeing and make X amount of dollars, great!
If I invest $1,000 in electronic nosepickers and make X amount of dollars, great!
If I invest $1,000 in Dogecoin and make X amount of dollars, great!
I don't see what the huge fuss is about this. Some people seem genuinely angry about cryptocurrencies and that a lot of people are successfully investing in them. What's the point of investing? To grow your money. Dogecoin has been possibly one of the best investments over the last few months any of us have ever seen. I think we're at roughly a 12,000% increase this year so far. Like any other investment, be smart with it. Some of y'all seem heated about this and it makes no sense. Whatever, I'm just here to enjoy the fact that an internet joke became such a successful short-term investment and is now worth more than GM, Ford, and Twitter.
In reply to infinitenexus :
I think that's the problem. GM, ford, and twitter are all real businesses that produce products and sell things (not all physical, but as you note that doesn't matter).
Investing is owning a part of a business. Crypto is owning a part of an "internet joke" (your words).
I'm only here because you're telling me I don't understand - which is why I asked for additional thoughts in an attempt to understand. I still don't think I do, but thanks for trying.
If you pull your money out of crypto right before the big boys do, you can make a crapload of money. Of that there is no doubt.
The hard part is figuring out when the big boys are going to pull out. You don't want to be the one holding the bag when everyone else has bailed . Just ask some of the Reddit guys who bought Gamestop stock. Some of them were screaming for everyone else to stop selling when the bottom dropped out. That's not how it works. 
Driven5
UltraDork
5/6/21 11:29 a.m.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:
Just ask some of the Reddit guys who bought Gamestop stock. Some of them were screaming for everyone else to stop selling when the bottom dropped out.
LOL... It almost makes me want to go find that for a good read on the new generation of "investing".
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to infinitenexus :
Investing is owning a part of a business. Crypto is owning a part of an "internet joke" (your words).
No no, Dogecoin was created as a joke. The creators made it because so many altcoins were popping up, so they made one based on a dog meme as a joke. Since then it's been used a lot for charity and donations - a lot was donated to the Jamaican bobsled olympic team, famously. Other coins were created specifically to have a decentralized, anonymous currency. The technology used in them - for example, Bitcoin uses the SHA-256 algorithm for creation of new addresses and verification of transactions - has real world applications. The blockchain technology that Bitcoin uses has been applied to other things, such as encrypting medical data, personal identity security, and IoT and Cybersecurity. I'm not as well-versed in other coins but some of them also have similar blockchain technologies that have excellent applications in cybersecurity and encryption.
As I said before, if I invest $1,000 in X and made a 25% return then I have invested successfully. What does it matter if I invest in Boeing stocks, electronic nosepickers, or Dogecoin? What is the goal of a successful investment - putting your money only in a certain type of investment because that's what you think is real? No. The goal is profit. This year, my Boeing stocks (a "proper" and "real" investment) haven't done very well. In the same amount of time, my Dogecoin investment (which is just a pyramid scheme and not a "real" investment) has seen more than a 10,000% return.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:
If you pull your money out of crypto right before the big boys do, you can make a crapload of money. Of that there is no doubt.
The hard part is figuring out when the big boys are going to pull out. You don't want to be the one holding the bag when everyone else has bailed . Just ask some of the Reddit guys who bought Gamestop stock. Some of them were screaming for everyone else to stop selling when the bottom dropped out. That's not how it works.
While your first statement is true, that applies to pretty much anything - buy low, sell high. I did exactly that with Nikola stocks a while ago - bought low, they spiked and I sold before they crashed again. Successful investment. I only wish I had more to buy with!
Also, I'm one of the reddit guys that bought Gamestop. I bought it around $30 per share. It's currently sitting at $162. Definitely a very successful investment. It did have a spike, and some people new to investing timed things wrong and lost money (there was also blatant market manipulation going on but that's for another thread). Instead of laughing at them, why not take a few seconds to help someone out and educate them on better timing of investments? That definitely seems the more honorable approach.
I believe you're correct. If you use USD to buy stocks, lotto tickets, numbers on a roulette wheel, raffle tickets, Yen, tulip bulbs, car parts, or crypto, and you end up with more money after some time has passed, then yes. You will have made money, and you will be able to express the amount of money you have made in terms of an annual % return. In all cases, no gain is realized until the item is sold (and converted back into USD).
If I buy a foreign currency, am I investing in the technology that another government uses to make physical paper bills or to administer financial transactions? (Honest question).
Let's get this back to the original topic of Dogecoin
If you look at the price earlier on, you can see large spikes of 10% or more that occur pretty much seconds after Elon Musk tweets anything Doge-related. Which he does, regularly. While I wasn't very good at timing them, a friend of mine was and set stepped limit buys and sells daily, and made a very good ROI around these spikes. They seemed to have smoothed out a bit lately, although I'll admit I stopped paying attention to the tweets.
As someone mentioned towards the beginning of the thread, Elon Musk is hosting Saturday Night Live this weekend, and he has said he will be talking about Dogecoin on the show. Personally, I'm going to be continuously updating my limit sells while that's on - and based on the recent history of Dogecoin, I expect one of two things to happen: it's either going to skyrocket during the show and come back down afterwards, or it's just going to flounder around and not do much of anything like it did on 4/20.
infinitenexus said:
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to infinitenexus :
Investing is owning a part of a business. Crypto is owning a part of an "internet joke" (your words).
No no, Dogecoin was created as a joke. The creators made it because so many altcoins were popping up, so they made one based on a dog meme as a joke. Since then it's been used a lot for charity and donations - a lot was donated to the Jamaican bobsled olympic team, famously. Other coins were created specifically to have a decentralized, anonymous currency. The technology used in them - for example, Bitcoin uses the SHA-256 algorithm for creation of new addresses and verification of transactions - has real world applications. The blockchain technology that Bitcoin uses has been applied to other things, such as encrypting medical data, personal identity security, and IoT and Cybersecurity. I'm not as well-versed in other coins but some of them also have similar blockchain technologies that have excellent applications in cybersecurity and encryption.
As I said before, if I invest $1,000 in X and made a 25% return then I have invested successfully. What does it matter if I invest in Boeing stocks, electronic nosepickers, or Dogecoin? What is the goal of a successful investment - putting your money only in a certain type of investment because that's what you think is real? No. The goal is profit. This year, my Boeing stocks (a "proper" and "real" investment) haven't done very well. In the same amount of time, my Dogecoin investment (which is just a pyramid scheme and not a "real" investment) has seen more than a 10,000% return.
You could use blockchain technology for an international currency buy you pretty much have to convince the whole world to use it as such and that isn't easy. Most people I deal with still want dollars. Most countries will back their own currency over an independent one. It is some kind of libertarian dream to have a independent currency that countries can't print more of at will. Good luck with that. These countries aren't going to give up that power easily.
The issue is whether crypto currencies are currency or an investment. You really don't want to keep re-setting prices on your groceries as Bitcoins keep going up and down in value. Nobody in retail wants to chase that rabbit. Currencies have to be stable. Pump and dump investments have to gyrate wildly so that people can keep making money buying and selling it over and over again. These are two different animals.
