The difference between F1 and NASCAR

It's not that it is another type of culture of racing that turns me off, open wheeled cars are just boring to me. Take that, mix in very little passing, and a dash of elitist fans and it becomes a complete turn off.

have driven only road courses but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy circle track racing. Most of what I have learned setting up road cars came from working at a shop full of former circle track mechanics.

If you missed wind tunnel last night, Pastrana was on talking about his dive into NASCAR. His friends were asking him why he is not just driving faster and turning left. He just laughed and said "this is awesome" like 5 times.

How fast would F1 be if the designers were unshackled? I don't like the restrictions but I can understand it. They're already otherworldly. I don't think there's a runoff big enough for an unlimited F1 car.

Keith Tanner wrote: How fast would F1 be if the designers were unshackled?

The drivers would need to wear G-suits* and the cars would be going clean past 400kph for sure.

*Actual response to this question from an F1 car designer I saw in a documentary

Anti-stance wrote: If you missed wind tunnel last night, Pastrana was on talking about his dive into NASCAR. His friends were asking him why he is not just driving faster and turning left. He just laughed and said "this is awesome" like 5 times.

And Pastrana clearly made the point that it's not as easy as most people think. Coming from him that speaks volumes.

I think what we saw at last weekend's NASCAR race is that Logano is a prick. That isn't how you win races in NASCAR, as he demonstraited. Before long, every driver on the track will be after him and he won't last much past the first lap.

fast_eddie_72 wrote: I think what we saw at last weekend's NASCAR race is that Logano is a prick. That isn't how you win races in NASCAR, as he demonstraited. Before long, every driver on the track will be after him and he won't last much past the first lap.

how he still has a Cup ride is beyond me... he is an elite Nationwide driver, but a mediocre Cup driver that just always gets in over his head and wrecks the race for other teams. i think he might have 2 wins in Cup since he took Tony Stewart's seat at JGR but to listen to him talk you'd think he was the second coming of Dale Sr...

the problem as I see it... they keep to changing the same formula....

Set the formula so it just doesn't allow 400kph....

Hmmm, 1.2 liter petrol(6 cylinders or more required), or 2.2 liter diesel (four or less cylinders) - no boost for either engine.

Or as I recently heard suggested, skip specifying the type or displacement of engine entirely, and just limit instantaneous fuel flow. "You get x kilojoules per minute of chemical energy. Have fun."

This all does lie just on the edge of launching me into a rant about how just like virtually anything else which gets big enough to sell ads, everything is centered around how much money is made by the advertisers/owners.

What if it wasn't about the show? Anybody else going to stop being interested in racing if it falls off the advertisers' map? Sure, some stuff will be less available, and there'll be less opportunity to make a living at it. But if the racing were only about the racing, rather than the ratings... I think the quality of racing would look after itself for those who are interested in the racing.

Roger Penske said the only team order he has is "Don't take each other out" I watched the Indycar race. Pretty boring, not a lot of passing.
Will Powers adventure was crazy, not at all his fault and on a full course yellow. Essentially put him out of the race. Simona (sp) did good.

That's pretty much the direction that Le Mans is taking - limiting energy availability. They're also really upping the amount of energy recovery per lap as well, which will raise some interesting problems due to the amount of heat generated.

If the advertisers aren't there, the top tiers disappear.

Funny, I saw the title and thought this was going to be about how much better F1 is than nascar. Just shows you how different opinions are.

I watched both races and I guess I'm just too civil to get into all the redneck cussing and fighting drama that is NASCAR. It's just in such bad taste. I've seen plenty of moments in F1 where drivers had very good reasons to throw some punches but it I didn't happen. The managing of tires and holding back will die down in a few more races once the teams form a good tire strategy. I wish they could hold off on revamping everything every other year like they do though.

iceracer wrote: Roger Penske said the only team order he has is "Don't take each other out" I watched the Indycar race. Pretty boring, not a lot of passing. Will Powers adventure was crazy, not at all his fault and on a full course yellow. Essentially put him out of the race. Simona (sp) did good.

Umm, St Pete is a very narrow street course so a lack of passing shouldn't be a surprise. I was more entertained by the passing that did happen, that there were relatively few cautions and by Simona's performance.

I also watched a few mid-race Nascar laps at Fontana but didn't catch the end; I took a nap because I got up to watch the F1 race.

Keith Tanner wrote: If the advertisers aren't there, the top tiers disappear.

EDIT: I realized after the fact that this reads a bit like I'm jumping down Keith's throat, when the reality is that he just had the unfortunate timing of having posted a key idea when I was ready to vent my spleen about marketing in motorsport... Sorry, Keith! I'm totally the shiny happy person here, but I'm leaving my rant

The top tiers are the highest tiers which remain, ne c'est pas?

The money flying around F1 is significantly disconnected from cars and racing. It is people who have stuff they want to sell. In some cases, it is people who are doing so well selling stuff that they can be silly with what they call "promotion". (I'm genuinely curious about the RoI of Red Bull F1 for the energy drink manufacturer, let alone Toro Rosso...)

There was F1 long before there was anything like this amount of money involved.

What we have now is a spectacle which is so financially important in terms of ad revenue that what happens can't be left to silly things like best engineering solutions or most talented/dedicated drivers. We must have reliably close racing, with just enough passing. Too little passing or too much dominance and the TV ratings folks have bad news, and the ad sales guys have a harder time.

This is not why people race, nor is it why people who love racing love it. It has benefits, and allows more people to make some kind of living attached to racing, and makes a few involved people very, very wealthy. But fundamentally, the top tier could be anything; it doesn't have to be precisely what it is now in order for spectacular racing done by dedicated people to exist. Nor does getting that racing into video have to be a multibillion dollar arrangement; I could do with better camerawork and commentary than the cable community access 1/4-mile dirt track stuff, but that leaves a whole lot of middle ground.

I think it's possible that the greatest benefit of the amount of money pouring in is that maintaining the image has helped motivate improvements in safety, and that's not a small thing.

Meh... You can keep both Nascar and F1. Give me Euro and Aussie touring car racing and WRC instead, Please

Aeromoto wrote: Meh... You can keep both Nascar and F1. Give me Euro and Aussie touring car racing and WRC instead, Please

which major tv networks can we find those broadcast live on in the USA?

novaderrik wrote:

Aeromoto wrote: Meh... You can keep both Nascar and F1. Give me Euro and Aussie touring car racing and WRC instead, Please

which major tv networks can we find those broadcast live on in the USA?

Poor network programming doesn't negate the preference.

I got to be honest I have pretty much stopped watching racing. I might catch the NASCAR races on the road courses and occasional sports car race.

fast_eddie_72 wrote: I think what we saw at last weekend's NASCAR race is that Logano is a prick. That isn't how you win races in NASCAR, as he demonstraited. Before long, every driver on the track will be after him and he won't last much past the first lap.

Logano is a piece of crap, plain and simple.

ransom wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: If the advertisers aren't there, the top tiers disappear.

EDIT: I realized after the fact that this reads a bit like I'm jumping down Keith's throat, when the reality is that he just had the unfortunate timing of having posted a key idea when I was ready to vent my spleen about marketing in motorsport... Sorry, Keith! I'm totally the shiny happy person here, but I'm leaving my rant The top tiers are the highest tiers which remain, ne c'est pas?

Okay, Mister Pedant, the current top tiers disappear.

Yes, there was F1 before advertising got involved. Well, sorta. "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" has always been a factor, as factories have been behind racing from the start. There always has to be some justification for spending that much money and effort, not just the love of racing. The love of racing will get you Saturday night 1/4 mile tracks but not much else. The era of the gentleman racer competing at a high level was 70 years ago. Now, it tops out at about the GT3 level and there's no ground-breaking engineering there.

Close competition is also crucial to the sport. Example: Can-Am. That was a technological showcase (sponsored in large part by advertisers) that was usually dominated by one team at a time. It was a bright flame that burned out. Is racing that is exciting to watch such a terrible thing from the point of the fans?

What happened in the 60's was that companies that were not directly related to motorsports got involved. Martini, Silk Cut, JPS and the like. Whatever the reason, it brought money into the sport so that innovation could leap ahead. Think of an iconic race team from the last 60 years. Other than possibly Ferrari, they're tied to a sponsor. Porsche 917s in Gulf colors, Lancias in Martini, Porsche 956 in Rothmans, Lotus 79 in JPS. Does it really matter if they're selling oil or booze? The end result is that you get to see spectacular cars battling it out with the best drivers in the world behind the wheel.

I understand what you're saying. It's why I like watching Olympic hockey over the NHL, because the players are motivated differently. But there's still something to be said for the current top levels in all sorts of sports. The absolute best of the best. If advertising provides enough money to make this happen and makes sure that it's accessible to me, I'm okay with that.

Keith, you do make some good points.

I don't think we want to get rid of advertising. I just think we've reached a point where the tail is wagging the dog a bit, and the racing exists to fulfill contractual obligations for viewers' eyeballs...

I like NASCAR because it makes money and it's probably the most viable career move for an up and coming racer. There was another thread about Rolex 24 hours and how you can rent a car to race that weekend for something like $75,000. That's not racing, that's an expensive HPDE......

If we're talking PURE racing by people mainly with talent, then NASCAR is the closest. F1, LeMans, etc, you have to have BIG bucks or a TON of sponsors to even play. And (at least in the U.S.), you pretty much have to jump straight into the top levels, there's not much of a feeder series. SCCA is probably the closest to get you into more "professional" series, but it's still a huge jump.

Now, looking at NASCAR, (yes, I know it's roundy round and there's a redneck element to it), but starting from the very lower levels, there definitely is a ladder system in place so someone with talent can make money at it. NASCAR reaches all the way down to your local track. So, it's possible for someone who's really talented and not filthy rich to move up through the multitude of NASCAR series to the big show. Sprint Cup gets most of the attention, but I'm willing to bet the guys racing Nationwide or the truck series still make a decent living at it.

(Yes, there IS a ladder series for F1, but it's not viable for a US driver.)

I'm not deluded enough to think that guys with money don't get into the sport easier than others, but I stand by the idea that it's much easier for someone with more talent than dough to make it in NASCAR.

-Rob

I had another thought I wanted to point out...

I wasn't just being pedantic when I pointed out that the highest remaining tiers become the de facto top tiers.

The underlying point is that whatever the top tiers are will be meaningful intrinsically; they are the top tiers; the pinnacle of the sport.

There's lots of other important stuff you touched on; parity, excitement, fairness, societal interest... And to one extent or another these things should be considered. But I don't think more is necessarily better, in many aspects.

ransom wrote: But if the racing were only about the racing, rather than the ratings... I think the quality of racing would look after itself for those who are interested in the racing.

there is a good point int that. I mentioned in another post somewhere that I would be ok with a less popular series if it meant we could have better racing. A pitfall of success sometimes the geed for sponsors and ratings at the expense of good racing.

I would never say driving a nascar race is easy, far from it.hose guys have to work. I just do not see it (nascar) as good racing. it's like watching a mosh pit occasionally break out for some tandem dancing only to be balled up again after a yellow.

Heck, I've seen the same thing at other races. Two guys racing their a-- of for the win, then crash and the third place guy wins. Happened at Martinsville. Jimmie and Jeff side by side. Ran into each other on a restart and Bowyer slipped by. Some say it was Bowyers fault.

The thing that annoys me about NASCAR is the sheer length of the races. First 10-20 laps are good, I nap in the middle, and the last 10 laps are exciting. They should copy BTCC's format: 2 shorter races with the second race having an inverted starting grid based on the results from the first race