They only had an 8th grade education. 1895 final exam

autoxrs wrote: Dumbification of 'merica ftw, otherwise known as NCLB. NCLB - The only children getting left behind are the smart ones.

Yep. The dumb kids won't be the next leaders of industry. We should be focusing on the smart kids, for sure.

I agree The smart kids are getting ignored, and that the leaders of tomorrow are in trouble.

I also agree America is getting dumbed down, etc.

I also agree that No Child Left Behind was a bad idea.

However, this is significantly bigger than NCLB. NCLB was a symptom of an educationally challenged society, not a cause.

Check into the works of John Taylor Gatto.

1991 NY State Teacher of the year, and 3 time NY city teacher of the year. Quit teaching in 1991 while still New York State Teacher of the Year, claiming that he was no longer willing to hurt children.

His books include "Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling" (1992), among others. He is a nationally renowned speaking in the area of school reform, and has been included in Who's Who in America every year from 1996 on.

That was 10 years before NCLB was conceived. (And even before a few of YOU were conceived!)

Let me see if I can boil this down to actual questions that would demonstrate actually useful skills/knowledge as opposed to just the ones that demonstrate rote memorization, less questions that use terms that are outdated or lack correct units (e.g. asking a question based on linear units, when it should be in square units). I'm also taking out ones that directly relate to Kansas:

Toyman01 wrote: 8th Grade Final Exam: 1895 Grammar (Time, one hour) 8 Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar. Arithmetic (Time, 1 hour 15 minutes) 2 A wagon box is 2 feet deep, 10 feet long, and 3 feet wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold? 3 If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at 50 cents/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. for tare? 5 Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. of coal at $6.00 per ton. 6 Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent. 10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt. U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes) 3 Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War. 6 Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion. 7 Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and Howe? Orthography (Time, one hour) [Do we even know what this is?] 9 Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays. 10 Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.. Geography (Time, one hour) 1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend? 3 Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean? 4 Describe the mountains of North America 6 Name and locate the principal trade centers of the United States. 8 Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude? 9 Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.

I think that got rid of most of the test.

Now, I teach 6-8th grade. The math questions are about what we expect our 6-7th graders to be able to do. Most of our 7-8th grade students are doing basic algebra and working on ratios and proportions. The only thing they spend less time on is interest.

They would not no as much about monetary bookkeeping, because they will not be expected to handle their own finances for another 4-6 years.

The writing portion, my 6th grade, lower achieving students would probably be able to pass the 150 word demo.

They would probably have difficulty with those geography and history questions, but would have a much better understanding of other science questions. They would be able to explain: simple machines, electrical circuits, scientific method, and basics of biology.

Nope. My kids might not be able to answer these exact questions, but they'd be able to demonstrate a greater depth and breadth of knowledge that is more pertinent to our modern society.

Only place I do think we're really lacking is a genuine understanding of other nations, cultures, and governments of the world.

oldtin wrote: . Ooooohhh conspiracy theory time - our gubment actually wants stupid people who can be distracted easily with shiny objects.

I have heard this too... from both sides of the political argument. Basically. both the conservatives and the liberals have worked VERY hard to wipe out the middle class. They are too hard to control.

This is done through both money AND education. If you are too poor to worry about politics because you are too busy working your tail off just to survive, you can be controlled. If you are too stupid to know any better, then their job is complete.

And I am not usually in the tinfoil hat brigade

There might be another reason as to why the curriculum has changed. I've certainly noticed that in the countries I lived in (Germany, UK) and some places I visit(ed) a lot, the common complaint of the businesses was that they couldn't find enough workers.

At closer examination, what they couldn't find was cheap young workers that they didn't need to train up at least a little, but they didn't want to pay for the extra experience.

As a result, there were intense lobbying efforts to get people through technical schools etc with a curriculum designed such that the pupils would supposedly not need any further training. Of course, these were 3-4 courses in fast moving environments like IT.

I've seen, sorry, interviewed some of the results. No wonder some companies rather hire IT talent in India.

Just a thought, like.

In 1895 teaching was a respected and reasonably well-paid profession. Not so much respect or pay now.

Tim Baxter wrote: In 1895 teaching was a respected and reasonably well-paid profession. Not so much respect or pay now.

Didn't teacher often move from house to house in the local community because they couldn't afford a place to live?

Salanis wrote: Let me see if I can boil this down to actual questions that would demonstrate actually useful skills/knowledge as opposed to just the ones that demonstrate rote memorization, less questions that use terms that are outdated or lack correct units (e.g. asking a question based on linear units, when it should be in square units). I'm also taking out ones that directly relate to Kansas:

Toyman01 wrote: 8th Grade Final Exam: 1895 Grammar (Time, one hour) 8 Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar. Arithmetic (Time, 1 hour 15 minutes) 2 A wagon box is 2 feet deep, 10 feet long, and 3 feet wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold? 3 If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at 50 cents/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. for tare? 5 Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. of coal at $6.00 per ton. 6 Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent. 10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt. U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes) 3 Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War. 6 Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion. 7 Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and Howe? Orthography (Time, one hour) [Do we even know what this is?] 9 Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays. 10 Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.. Geography (Time, one hour) 1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend? 3 Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean? 4 Describe the mountains of North America 6 Name and locate the principal trade centers of the United States. 8 Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude? 9 Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.

I think that got rid of most of the test. Now, I teach 6-8th grade. The math questions are about what we expect our 6-7th graders to be able to do. Most of our 7-8th grade students are doing basic algebra and working on ratios and proportions. The only thing they spend less time on is interest. They would not no as much about monetary bookkeeping, because they will not be expected to handle their own finances for another 4-6 years. The writing portion, my 6th grade, lower achieving students would probably be able to pass the 150 word demo. They would probably have difficulty with those geography and history questions, but would have a much better understanding of other science questions. They would be able to explain: simple machines, electrical circuits, scientific method, and basics of biology. Nope. My kids might not be able to answer these exact questions, but they'd be able to demonstrate a greater depth and breadth of knowledge that is more pertinent to our modern society. Only place I do think we're really lacking is a genuine understanding of other nations, cultures, and governments of the world.

You are no fun at all, this thread is supposed to be about how stupid kids are today in comparison to kids of 1895.

Salanis wrote: Let me see if I can boil this down to actual questions that would demonstrate actually useful skills/knowledge as opposed to just the ones that demonstrate rote memorization, less questions that use terms that are outdated or lack correct units (e.g. asking a question based on linear units, when it should be in square units). I'm also taking out ones that directly relate to Kansas:

Toyman01 wrote: 8th Grade Final Exam: 1895 Grammar (Time, one hour) 8 Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar. Arithmetic (Time, 1 hour 15 minutes) 2 A wagon box is 2 feet deep, 10 feet long, and 3 feet wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold? 3 If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at 50 cents/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. for tare? 5 Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. of coal at $6.00 per ton. 6 Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent. 10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt. U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes) 3 Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War. 6 Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion. 7 Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and Howe? Orthography (Time, one hour) [Do we even know what this is?] 9 Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays. 10 Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.. Geography (Time, one hour) 1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend? 3 Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean? 4 Describe the mountains of North America 6 Name and locate the principal trade centers of the United States. 8 Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude? 9 Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.

I think that got rid of most of the test. Now, I teach 6-8th grade. The math questions are about what we expect our 6-7th graders to be able to do. Most of our 7-8th grade students are doing basic algebra and working on ratios and proportions. The only thing they spend less time on is interest. They would not no as much about monetary bookkeeping, because they will not be expected to handle their own finances for another 4-6 years. The writing portion, my 6th grade, lower achieving students would probably be able to pass the 150 word demo. They would probably have difficulty with those geography and history questions, but would have a much better understanding of other science questions. They would be able to explain: simple machines, electrical circuits, scientific method, and basics of biology. Nope. My kids might not be able to answer these exact questions, but they'd be able to demonstrate a greater depth and breadth of knowledge that is more pertinent to our modern society. Only place I do think we're really lacking is a genuine understanding of other nations, cultures, and governments of the world.

you apparently have some amazingly bright students.. at least compared to the ones I come in contact with here... ya there are some very smart kids here, they just don't seem to be in the majority... our loss

wbjones wrote: ya there are some very smart kids here, they just don't seem to be in the majority... our loss

Well, I mean, no disrespect and all, but, duh.

Education's main problem is trying to get the same results from different qualities of supplies. You can't make a rollcage out of pipe iron. It's why No Child Left Behind is such a terrible idea. Some children are going to have to be left behind, or else it's going to be at the cost of every other child.

Salanis:

I respect your perspective as a professional educator.

However, I took a look at the parts of the list you eliminated.

It appears that you see no usefulness or relevance to skills and knowledge including:

Grammar: 1 Capitalization. 2 Parts of speech. 3 Paragraphs and writing structure 4 Conjugations 7 Punctuation. Arithmetic: 1 Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication, and Division 7 Basic area calculation 10. Check writing, receipt writing. U.S. History 2 Basic understanding of the discovery of America by Columbus. 4 Show the territorial growth of the United States. 5 State history in the State the test was given in. Orthography 1 Alphabetics, phonetics, syllabication 5 Spelling rules. 6 Understanding of silent letters. 7 Understanding of common prefixes Geography 2 Climate in State the test was given. 7 European geography 9 Science- evaporation and condensation.

I know I re-worded most of these from the older unfamiliar verbage to more modern language, but I think it would be a mistake to eliminate most of these subjects as basic core knowledge areas.

Suggesting these areas are no longer valuable is EXACTLY the problem- it's what this thread is about.

The short version is, I actually expect my students to have significantly more knowledge than what is on the test. Their knowledge would cover different content more appropriate to modern life, and would be couched in terms that are more consistent with modern understandings of the material (particularly pertaining to science and language).

I think most kids these days have a greater level of knowledge than what is on this test. I think it is just a different set of knowledge that reflects advancements in technology and society. It's not so much that certain knowledge isn't valuable anymore, but that other knowledge is more valuable.

Only thing I do think covered on this test that is sadly lacking today is an understanding of world politics and geography.

A lot of what I left out was also because I was feeling too lazy to analyze questions too deeply, especially if there was something phrased a bit oddly, and cut them partly to make my post shorter.

Also, you accused me of omitting questions that I did leave in (e.g. evaporation).

SVreX wrote: Salanis: I respect your perspective as a professional educator. However, I took a look at the parts of the list you eliminated. It appears that you see no usefulness or relevance to skills and knowledge including: I know I re-worded most of these from the older unfamiliar verbage to more modern language, but I think it would be a mistake to eliminate most of these subjects as basic core knowledge areas. Suggesting these areas are no longer valuable is EXACTLY the problem- it's what this thread is about.

Long version:

Not quite, but I can see how you got that assumption. Basically, most of those skills become innate understanding of a natural speaker of the language. You could judge whether or not they understood them better through the writing sample (which I included) than the questions.

I left them out because I would not expect someone of that age to have a technical understanding of the language. But I would expect them to have a better practical grasp of it. Difference between a driver and a mechanic. As an English major, I wasn't certain of some of the terms being used (e.g. "principle parts" of a verb. Does that mean tense and number?) I would expect students to be able to: demonstrate (through a writing sample) basic grammar and spelling, sentence structure, paragraph structure, and the ability to form a basic thesis.

This also dates from a time when English grammar structure was taught using Latin grammar structure as a model, without regard to the fact that English is Germanic, not Latinate.

Same thing goes for spelling rules. English is a mutt language that derives words from Germanic, Latin, Greek, and French. There aren't too many universal spelling rules. A writing sample will tell you if the student knows how to spell.

I actually should have left out the "use these words in context" examples, since many of those words are not in common use anymore, such as "raze".

I did leave in at least one question about what climate is. I did take out the question about the state it was given in. I suppose I could have changed it to "[your state]".

Our kids at the school would not do too well with meteorology. That is, however, because we've chosen to focus on classical mechanics, electromagnetics, computer science, basic chemistry, and biology. None of which are covered on this test.

Yeah. I don't expect kids to know everything on this list. I do think knowing and being able to categorize technical terms for most things is generally unnecessary until you get to upper level college courses. You have to make a judgement call somewhere. I would expect the children I teach, to have a greater level of functional knowledge than what is covered on this test. And I think most public school children would have that as well. I understood geometry, could write a short essay, had learned a fair amount of history, and had a decent introduction to biology, mechanics, chemistry, and electricity by the time I was out of 8th grade.

wbjones wrote: you apparently have some amazingly bright students.. at least compared to the ones I come in contact with here... ya there are some very smart kids here, they just don't seem to be in the majority... our loss

I think it's more that we have a lot better teacher:student ratio, and that the parents are more greatly interested and involved in their children's education. Actually, if you were to graph the intelligence of our students, it would probably be a pretty flat curve with our lowest student being just intelligent enough to not be able to get stuck in special ed (he clearly has some mental issues) and our brightest pretty high up there.

Ultimately, I'd say the biggest issue today is classes being too big, and it being a lot harder for teachers to give individual attention to students.

Salanis wrote: I think most kids these days have a greater level of knowledge than what is on this test. I think it is just a different set of knowledge that reflects advancements in technology and society.

yeah but the ability to text while driving will only get them killed sooner or later

Salanis wrote: They would not know as much about monetary bookkeeping, because they will not be expected to handle their own finances for another 4-6 years.

I suppose that is forgivable from an English Major given that the rest of your posts seem to be accurate.

Also, interest should be something taught from about seventh grade on in my opinion. Given the current debt issues that individuals have, not including governmental and banker issues, interest is killing the middle class. That is, money management needs to be ingrained in the young to effect a good change into adulthood. Because children are not taught how to manage money, and severely coddled by their parents in my area, you get 25 year old wrecking cars and expecting their parents to buy replacements. I know people who pay rent for their kids when the kids are making $2-3K a month because the kids blow it all on toys.

Salanis wrote: I think it's more that we have a lot better teacher:student ratio, and that the parents are more greatly interested and involved in their children's education.

I will respectfully suggest that the bolded part of your quote is THE primary reason your students excel. That, in no way, is intended to diminish your efforts, either.

The point is that if parents are not engaged in their kids lives and education, a majority of those kids will not have the motivation to learn more and push their limits. If parents don't understand the value, it's pretty certain too many kids won't either. When parents don't care, it's ever worse.

Kudos to you, and even more to your student's parents!

oldsaw wrote:

Salanis wrote: ...and that the parents are more greatly interested and involved in their children's education.

I will respectfully suggest that the bolded part of your quote is THE primary reason your students excel. That, in no way, is intended to diminish your efforts, either.

No doubt. I take no offense at that because it is the absolute truth.

I'm going to throw this out there: Its not all the schools fault. It is the parents fault. Or rather the lifestyle that the parents provide. How many grade-school through college (and beyond) go to the TV with 4392 channels to spend their free time? And when thats boring them, they go plug a machine into that tv and stupidly shoot at aliens. What did the same age of the previous generations do? They read a book. I was an avid reader from the time I was about 6. Started with Goodnight Moon, by sixth grade it was Harry Potter, Killer Angels, and Lonesome Dove. Also by sixth grade, I was a better writer than most of my peers, and never had grammatical mistakes. Ever. By the time that we were sophomores in high school, most people had caught up with me, but I always thought that we should be beyond where we were.

Also, we're in an society of not working hard in general. Pay someone else to do it. How much of that stuff that we pay other people to do is EASY and would take a day to learn, for the rest of your life.

I guess that what I'm saying is that the reason this test is so hard is because nobody needs most of it anymore. If you do need the stuff thats still relevant today, you go pay someone to do it. And its sad, cause a lot of it is really easy.

Someone said something about the Ti-89 calculator. Just a quick aside about that... Yes, it can do all the stuff. But at least for me, we weren't allowed to use it in the classes where we were learning the stuff it could do (Derivatives, Integration, etc)--we had to learn that. Then when we got to the next level, we used the 89 so we don't have to waste time figuring out the stuff we already know. It really does help us learn, if used correctly.

ignorant wrote: [people] need to stop pointing fingers on this stuff and actually get out there an be the Renaissance men that they want to be.. Lead by example. I'm trying to.

probably the most valid, poignant and powerful wordsI think Ive ever read by you Ig, well played sir!

Salanis wrote:

oldsaw wrote:

Salanis wrote: ...and that the parents are more greatly interested and involved in their children's education.

I will respectfully suggest that the bolded part of your quote is THE primary reason your students excel. That, in no way, is intended to diminish your efforts, either.

No doubt. I take no offense at that because it is the absolute truth.

We agree.

I would also add, however, that it sounds like you work in a VERY UNUSUAL school system.

Parental involvement in the schools is an enormous black hole nationwide.

SVreX wrote: Parental involvement for the sake of bettering the education and not just threatening until their son/daughter gets a better grade in the schools is an enormous black hole nationwide.

fixed

I was pretty lucky about public schools - I wound up in a school where they actually made an effort to give smarter students classes that fit their levels. There were two kids in my school who took BC calculus in tenth grade. And my parents did work hard to make sure my brother and I studied hard. That was pretty important since before I got into that school I had to deal with a teacher who knew her subjects so poorly that she couldn't pronounce the vocabulary words. (There's no "v" in "umbilical cord"...)

The parents' involvement is definitely important - I know quite a few teachers and have heard a lot of horror stories where the parents pretty much try to get teachers fired over flunking or punishing kids who seriously deserve it.

mtn wrote:

SVreX wrote: Parental involvement for the sake of bettering the education and not just threatening until their son/daughter gets a better grade in the schools is an enormous black hole nationwide.

fixed

Parental involvement in their childrens lives is an enormous black hole nationwide.

nope...now fixed