Beer Baron 🍺 said:No one should ever make absolute statements.
Please, pardon me for bringing this up, but you have herein violated your own policy. 
Beer Baron 🍺 said:No one should ever make absolute statements.
Please, pardon me for bringing this up, but you have herein violated your own policy.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
That was my point, but I think you can get bachelor's degrees in our colleges.
1988RedT2 said:Beer Baron 🍺 said:No one should ever make absolute statements.
Please, pardon me for bringing this up, but you have herein violated your own policy.
I think the issue is that the definition of being educated has not kept up with the reality of the times. I wholeheartedly agree that being educated is very important, but strongly disagree with the traditional definition of education. If you have the knowledge to properly do your job, it shouldn't matter whether you learned it in college, on the job, in the military, or if you were self taught. If you have the knowledge and ability, that should trump the how and where you acquired it. I could make arguments pro and con for each method of learning, but in the end, it is the result that is important.
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
I don't think I've ever actually been qualified on paper for any job I've held for more than a summer.
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
Companies used to be a lot more willing to just identify employees with ability and aptitude, and then give them specific on-the-job training. Not so much anymore.
20-something years ago, my wife got a job as a programmer with a degree in Economics and no programming experience.
ShawnG said:There's a lot of people who simply wouldn't have learned well in a university situation. I could probably handle it now, but it would have been a waste of money when I finished high school.
Yep. My folks did not save money for me to go to college, and felt bad about it. However, if they had money to put me into college it would just have been wasted. I do not learn well in a classroom atmosphere, despite being one of those 'gifted' students educators talk about. Pretty certain I'd have flunked out in the first semester.
Add to this that I had zero idea what I wanted to do with my life. In my 20s I dabbled in automotive journalism, but it was already on the downswing, and I saw that I wasn't going to be the next Peter Egan. I just sort of stumbled my way into a career in insurance claims, a job that has been overall pretty decent but I'm ready to call it quits as soon as possible (things have changed, and not in a way I like). Not until my 50s did I see that psychology is pretty fascinating to me, but by then the cost vs return didn't make it practical. Plus, I'd still have to try to navigate traditional classroom learning. Yuck.
One of my high school friends was pretty much forced into going to college. He went for engineering. Only made it a year. He wound up being an outfitter/guide on a ranch in Wyoming, which is what he really wanted to do all along. I always wonder how many young people suffer through higher education they really don't want because society tells them that is the only path to success.
I'm not opposed to college at all. My brother-in-law knew he wanted to be an architect and is now pretty high up in a local firm. That definitely required a degree. He is the type of person college is for.
So just I got a new job. I now have a largish field service org underneath me. 4 levels of reporting international coverage. Super smart dedicated hands on folks. Glad to be back in a technical role.
I'm an engineer with an mba. Done engineering work and e commerce work.
anyways. I'm 3 weeks in to the job and we get into a technical conversation in a hallway with new and experienced techs. One of the new techs(brand new 2 days) looks at me and goes. "you're three weeks in how can you know this stuff , you haven't had the training"
my response " yes sir, but despite this pressed white shirt. Once a shop rat, always a shop rat".
experience is education and education is experience. Case closed.
Boost_Crazy said:I think the issue is that the definition of being educated has not kept up with the reality of the times. I wholeheartedly agree that being educated is very important, but strongly disagree with the traditional definition of education. If you have the knowledge to properly do your job, it shouldn't matter whether you learned it in college, on the job, in the military, or if you were self taught. If you have the knowledge and ability, that should trump the how and where you acquired it. I could make arguments pro and con for each method of learning, but in the end, it is the result that is important.
Depending on the job, I could agree with that. Don't think I'd want a self-taught or OJT surgeon.
Universities are about research. Teaching is an offshoot of that.
To me education is about learning how to acquire knowledge and skills. Some knowledge is best gained through active experience and some through reading and listening. I have yet to do work that didn't require both.
In reply to Mr_Asa :
Every medical doctor in the USA gets OJT. It's required as part of their education. Step two once they finish their degree is a Residency Program where they get on the job training while supervised by more experienced and licensed doctors. This Residency can last 3 to 8 years.
In reply to lateapexer :
I work in R&D and that reminds me of something we often tell our new hires in the industry.
Your job in schooling is to acquire knowledge, in the workforce, you have to use that to do something that is profitable.
It's easy to get distracted by things that are "shiny" or academically interesting. Always focus on a path commercialize. Research is turning money into knowledge, Innovations are turning knowledge into money, we have to balance both of those things.
When I wrote my P license AME exam (that's an A&P for you guys in the USA), they're not allowed to ask you questions related to torque specs, dimensions, etc which can be found in the service manuals.
The reason is that these things can be superceded by an AD, SB or SA. Not to mention, memorizing things like that is one of the reasons stuff falls out of the sky.
On the test, there were a couple of these questions, one in particular related to the dimensions of a Teflon wear strip in a Hamilton Standard propeller.
When I bought this up to the examiner and explained why these questions are not supposed to be on the exam, the answer I got was "if you don't like it, write a letter to transport Canada".
I failed the exam.
I learned what I needed to learn though.
I don't play games with moving goal posts. I don't play when I'm being tested by someone who isn't qualified to be working in the field I'm being tested in. So f-you Mr. Examiner, go back to your office and give yourself a big pat on the back for a job well done on the government dime.
I'm going to go do something else to make bank.
I ended up making more money with less stress anyway.
As a blue collar, calloused-hand, knuckle dragger with very little education beyond high school (besides job specific training and certifications) who has spent the vast majority of his career in maintenance and repair, I want to agree with the sentiment of the original post but, there have been many MANY instances where my lack of a degree has been a deciding factor in me not landing a better-paying job or one that would have actually allowed me to spend time with my kids as they've grown up.
I'm 44 and, aside from limited stints during training or orientation, I've never had a day shift job in my life. "Big deal", most people say... well, it is. While the kids have had after school band performances, wrestling practice/competitions, whatever activities, I've been cooped up in a factory, steel mill, prison, or a foundry working second shift or both second and third shift; those 16's are GREAT for the family life. Kids are only young once and the older I get the more it bothers me.
It's not a 100% guarantee that a degree will get you onto first shift right out of the gate but, the chances are infinitely better than without one. I'd say that's pretty useful.
Peabody said:stuart in mn said:prodarwin said:These threads are always so productive.
Yes, I get so tired of the Us versus Them mentality. College is good for some people, working in a trade is good for others. The key aspect is either way, a person needs education to get ahead in the world.
I'm not sure how you ever considered it to be us vs them, I've never seen it that way, and always considered it to be that one need not get a degree to have a rewarding and productive career. If there is any us vs them component, it's us trying to educate them that you shouldn't be looking down on the trades.
You may have misunderstood me, I personally never considered it an Us versus Them situation but over my career I saw it happen many times with other people. That's what I was tired of - the fact of the matter is we all needed to work together.
I'm a retired electrical engineer. While there were things I knew that the electricians didn't, there were just as many or more things they knew that I didn't. I'd call them all the time to ask questions, and in turn they would call me to ask things too. For instance, I could have easily designed the electrical systems for a construction project that looked great on paper but made no sense in the real world, so I was always quick to confer with them to make sure a project could be built the way I showed it on the drawings and I spent a lot of time going out to the field to walk through things with them on the construction site (I primarily worked on the design of wastewater treatment plants, so I can assure you that wasn't necessarily a pleasant task. 
) Over the years I built up some great relationships with the various contractors in my area, and one of the things I'm proudest of are the letters and emails I received from many of them when I retired where they described how they enjoyed working with me.
In reply to stuart in mn :
Working together is the key. Sometimes the college boys and the guys doing the work just can't get along. Lots of attitude seems to flow in both directions.
I just sent an email to an architect and general contractor. The architect sent a spec list for hardware and a description of how the door should operate. The GC contacted me to supply and install the hardware and work with the security contractor to make it work. Unfortunately, the specified hardware won't do what he wants it to. The email I sent informed him of this and offered alternative hardware that would do what he wanted. As long as he doesn't get uppity, we can work together and I will happily help him solve the problem. It will make him look good, make me look good, save the customer some money and the job gets done on time. On the other hand, if he throws out the college boy attitude, berkeley him. I'll install what he specified and when it doesn't work, I'll change order him to death.
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