This really sucks!

Jeez, y'all have a rather distorted view of the problem. It appears you both say that since we 'need a cheap undocumented labor source' we should tolerate identity theft and other crimes, and that the system is 'intentionally broken' to provide cheap labor?

And that in order to save money we should allow those who have broken the law to get a 'free pass', meaning they should be allowed to break the laws of our country and still be allowed to become citizens? Meaning they get the same benefits as those who did it correctly? Hmmm.

Call me stupid but I don't see it that way. I see the problem identified earlier in the thread; those who hire illegals should be punished as severely as those illegals. I also say those who cross the border illegally should be rounded up and sent back.

NoBrakesRacing wrote: ...And I do not know of any fast track or free passes for undocumented immigrants....

Well, not recently. But if you have been around a while, the "big solution" a few times (I don't know the exact dates, but I think late 80's and again in the 90's) was amnesty. They basically gave all the current illegals citizenship with the idea (if there was any plan at all?) that it would solve things. Of course that likely served as a HUGE motivator for others to get across on the off chance they might get "forgiven" also.

Anyway, yes the illegals are everywhere. Being close to the Mexican boarder is not a requirement. My biggest gripe with this whole thing is what others have mentioned: pick a damn law and inforce it, whatever it is!! To have a law, and not bother to enforce it, just encourages people to break it.

aircooled wrote: To have a law, and not bother to enforce it, just encourages people to break it.

To have a law, and not bother to enforce it, just encourages people to break it which in turn leads to breaking others.

I'm guessing you just forgot to include that last bit.

A lot of good points, but I mostly disagree. I do enjoy a going conversation however. And I mean this and my previous comments with the utmost of respect, although sometimes difficult to portray over a forum (won't call anybody stupid as I see quite the opposite). I know we can't agree on everything but I still like a good discussion.

I do not believe we 'need a cheap undocumented labor source', The US does need a strong labor force at all its levels, but I believe it should all be documented. As a society modernizes and is better educated its populace does not want to do some of the ugly and hard work, and in that is where immigration has come in throughout history to fill the gap. I believe the US has either decided to ignore that fact or allowed it to happen for whatever benefit, and therefore we have the labor and human problem we face today.

The US (everyone) benefits from their labor and money (yes, about 85% pay taxes like everyone else, money that they will never see. Plus sales tax etc), but since there is no legal system for them they should all (~12 million of men, women and kids) be rounded up and deported?, even if here for 10-20 years? That surely sounds like the right and feasible thing to do... (je, je used an emoticon) A bit hypocritical in my understanding. Plus very inhumane.

There was an amnesty in 1986 (Under Reagan, for those living here before 1982, about 2-3 million) and it was partially mishandled with some big loopholes, but it was needed the same that it is today some 27 years later. Now there are more undocumented immigrants but the laws have not really changed to try and help the problem. It has even been made more difficult. And closing the border (starting with Clinton) has made the problem worst as those that would come to work seasonally are now afraid to go back and forth. There has been small programs to give work permits to people from civil war or natural catastrophe torn countries, in mostly central america, but no other amnesties etc.

Should those that hire undocumented workers be fined etc?, sure but almost none of that is going on. Although under the perspective that these are people that only want to work I can't really see the strong need to do that. The part of "To have a law, and not bother to enforce it, just encourages people to break it which in turn leads to breaking others. " is a bit of a stretch as the crime rate is the same or lower than any other part of society in the same income/education bracket. The one law, which a lot are forced to break, is the wonderful idea of not having access to driving licenses, which means they can't normally get insurance so when they are in an accident there is no coverage for either party. But it is Politically correct...

We could also go into the subject of "a nation of laws" but we all know that laws are selectively enforced (good thing for traffic warnings instead of fines) and defined by the best paid lawyer. So if every law was always enforced to its highest consequence we would call it a totalitarian regime which no-one would be too happy with.

I believe we should use the labor force to improve the country, without demonizing the workers. Find a system that educates and improves the lives of those on the lowest levels of society (whether immigrant or US born) and the whole country would benefit. Deporting and putting people in jail for trying to work does not do anybody any good.

A lot more points to this subject but I will leave them for another time.

Take care

Javier

Jensenman wrote: Jeez, y'all have a rather distorted view of the problem. It appears you both say that since we 'need a cheap undocumented labor source' we should tolerate identity theft and other crimes,

I never said any of that, must be directed at someone else. We certainly dont need a cheap labor source but certain industries really like to have access to one.

Jensenman wrote: the system is 'intentionally broken' to provide cheap labor?

Yes, if we really wanted to enforce our immigration policy we would severly punish anyone hiring illegals. Problem solved. Politicians dont really want to though so they pass laws that they fail to enforce. Our spoken policy on immigration is far different then the one we actualy have in effect.

Jensenman wrote: And that in order to save money we should allow those who have broken the law to get a 'free pass', meaning they should be allowed to break the laws of our country and still be allowed to become citizens? Meaning they get the same benefits as those who did it correctly? Hmmm.

Never said that

Jensenman wrote: Call me stupid but I don't see it that way. I see the problem identified earlier in the thread; those who hire illegals should be punished as severely as those illegals. I also say those who cross the border illegally should be rounded up and sent back.

If you did the first part and punished people who hire illegals then the illegals would deport themselves as they would be unable to find work.

GlennS wrote:

Jensenman wrote: Jeez, y'all have a rather distorted view of the problem. It appears you both say that since we 'need a cheap undocumented labor source' we should tolerate identity theft and other crimes,

I never said any of that, must be directed at someone else. We certainly dont need a cheap labor source but certain industries really like to have access to one.

Jensenman wrote: the system is 'intentionally broken' to provide cheap labor?

Yes, if we really wanted to enforce our immigration policy we would severly punish anyone hiring illegals. Problem solved. Politicians dont really want to though so they pass laws that they fail to enforce. Our spoken policy on immigration is far different then the one we actualy have in effect.

Jensenman wrote: And that in order to save money we should allow those who have broken the law to get a 'free pass', meaning they should be allowed to break the laws of our country and still be allowed to become citizens? Meaning they get the same benefits as those who did it correctly? Hmmm.

Never said that

Jensenman wrote: Call me stupid but I don't see it that way. I see the problem identified earlier in the thread; those who hire illegals should be punished as severely as those illegals. I also say those who cross the border illegally should be rounded up and sent back.

If you did the first part and punished people who hire illegals then the illegals would deport themselves as they would be unable to find work.

And that's why I prefaced my comment with 'y'all' (which means plural down here in redneck country) and 'you both'.

I stand by my comments and my views. You want to believe there is a big conspiracy afoot to keep the immigration system broken, be my guest. I see changes coming because the American people will demand it.

No big conspiracy. When it comes to enforcement weighing the pros and the cons its usualy decided to not enforce our immigration laws. For the most part we only see token gestures to make it look like something is being done.

Bush wanted comprehensive immigration reform.... where did that go? I think the average american currently has a lot more on their mind then immigration reform. Im not holding my breath for any big change any time soon.

As usual, our do nothing Congress with a case of the partisan ass turned the whole immigration thing into a joke. And I hardly view the Border Patrol as a 'token gesture'.

Out here in the real world (beyond the DC Beltway and anywhere other than California or New York City) yes people DO care about the immigration issue. Yes, we DO want those who hire illegals to be punished.

Jensenman wrote: Out here in the real world

Is california cartoon land?

GlennS wrote:

Jensenman wrote: Out here in the real world

Is california cartoon land?

Judging by what I see come out of there, yes. Like all the idiotic celebrities, Charles Manson, power company regulation or deregulation or whatever that idiocy was/is, cults, feng shui, the list goes on and on.

Yeah, we got our problems over here too.

I always wonder what people think california is really like that have never been here before.

Same way how people think South Carolina is all rednecks marrying their sisters in trailer parks have never been here.

FWIW, I do NOT envy CA their real estate pricing.

Jensenman wrote:

GlennS wrote:

Jensenman wrote: Out here in the real world

Is california cartoon land?

Judging by what I see come out of there, yes.

Come on Glenn, as a Californian, surely you know as well as I how the entirety of California is one big Venice Beach. We all surf, smoke pot, hug trees, eat granola, hate guns, and love illegal aliens.

I'm going to have to argue that California is the most diverse state in the union. And I'm not just talking ethnically. I mean socially, politically, geographically... pretty much in any way possible.

We have more wackos because we have more people. The majority of liberal craziness comes from Hollywood and San Francisco.

yeah real estate here suuuuuuuckkksss!

Jensenman wrote: Same way how people think South Carolina is all rednecks marrying their sisters in trailer parks have never been here.

I thought that was alabama.... zing! <--- im j/k

We got wackos, too. They are just a bit more circumspect about it. Hang around downtown Charleston for a few days and talk to the true locals.

Yeah, every time a list for the bottom ranking of this or that comes out, we sigh in relief that there's Alabama, Mississippi and Lousiana. And occasionally Arkansas.

Salanis wrote: We all surf, smoke pot, hug trees, eat granola, hate guns, and love illegal aliens.

Im 1 out of 6!

Which 1?

I eat granola... on occasion.

Just saw a report on the news the other day. The were talking about how they (California, not the feds) have discovered 19,000 (!) illegal immigrants in the California jail system (not done looking yet) and 3,000 of them are in there for murder. An interesting tidbit is when they asked the screener how many came up in the fingerprint database (meaning they have been deported previously), she said "oh, about 90%"!!!!

Wow, think there is a problem there?

Another interesting part is when they talked to a ACLU lawyer guy about it and he said that he thought is was not appropriate because the US government and ICE should be doing it. Yah, no Sh#*t sherlock! Well, they aren't doing it!!! So someone has to!!

I am really curious what Mexico does with them when we deport them. I am guessing they don't put them in prison, hell, they don't want to have to pay for that!!!

Salanis wrote: Which 1? I eat granola... on occasion.

I surf

aircooled wrote: Just saw a report on the news the other day. The were talking about how they (California, not the feds) have discovered 19,000 (!) illegal immigrants in the California jail system (not done looking yet) and 3,000 of them are in there for murder. An interesting tidbit is when they asked the screener how many came up in the fingerprint database (meaning they have been deported previously), she said "oh, about 90%"!!!! Wow, think there is a problem there? Another interesting part is when they talked to a ACLU lawyer guy about it and he said that he thought is was not appropriate because the US government and ICE should be doing it. Yah, no Sh#*t sherlock! Well, they aren't doing it!!! So someone has to!! I am really curious what Mexico does with them when we deport them. I am guessing they don't put them in prison, hell, they don't want to have to pay for that!!!

That keeps coming up down here as well. ICE points at Border Patrol who point at the local PDs who point at the Highway Patrol who point at the FBI who point at ICE ad infinitum ad nauseam. It's not a conspiracy... it's just passing the buck because no one wants to get stuck with the responsibility.

Mexico doesn't seem to know (or care) exactly how many citizens they have or to bother to keep track of any reasonable percentage of them. The best thing about that: no welfare. They learn from birth that if you don't work you starve. The ones who come here legally make good citizens for that reason.

They took our jobs!

http://www.youtube.com/v/HKd6kSDcaYQ&hl=en&fs=1"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HKd6kSDcaYQ&hl=en&fs=1

This is what illegals cost us.

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year by state governments. Verify at: http://tinyurl.com/zob77

2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. Verify at: http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens. Verify at: http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English!

Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html

1. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the

American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.

Verify at http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

1. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.

Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

1. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.

Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

1. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers. Verify at:

http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html

1. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens. Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

2. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate

that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US

Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html

1. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border.

Verify at: Homeland Security Report: http://tinyurl.com/t9sht

1. The National Policy Institute, 'estimated that the total

cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period.'

Verify at: http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf

1. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin.

Verify at: http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm

1. 'The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million

Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States.'

Verify at: http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml

The total cost is a whopping $ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.

And no one mentions the fact that in some manner, illegals kill more Americans each and every year than the 9-11 hijackers.

Here in Indy we have had a 2 year old savagely raped by an illigal, several other under 12 year old children raped, a sheep was gang raped in an apartment and hurt so bad it had to be put down, a dog was raped, and at least 10 people have been killed by drunken illegals in the last few years.

ok lets research all of the advantages given by illegal immigration and see if its a net gain or loss.

For 1% of the expenditure annually I will sit on a fence and bring a hundred of my fellow GRM folks. Rifles will be supplied.

GlennS wrote: ok lets research all of the advantages given by illegal immigration and see if its a net gain or loss.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you have a fit a while back about what the iraq war is costing? And isn't the illegal immigration problem costing a lot more that Iraq? (Last figure I heard on the Iraq War, BTW, was $104 billion a year.) The illegals send half of that out of the country every year. The difference is most of the money for Iraq goes back into the US economy, the $45 billion sent out by illegals does not.