Thought exercise with possible real-world generator application

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

This is a lot to unpack, so I'm off to research stuff.

Thank you!

So... unpacking this:

Can you clarify.  Li-ion includes all the Lithium-based chemistries and NiMH includes all of the nickel-based chemistries?  There is one sentence in there that confuses me.  I'm reading it as "if you use NMC - which are the Li-ion batteries like tesla and tool batteries..."  I'm confused that an NMC is a Li-ion battery.

Edit:  NMC is short for LiNMC, right?  So still a Lithium category, but includes the other three?

Any resources you maybe know of to point me toward the types of chemistry and pros/cons/applications?

Almost all I've learned is from the wikipedia page- seriously- then following through links associated and following things like Cleantechnica and Elecktrek. Random articles will produce random bits. I'm not joking when I say, that I've been trying to research electronics for years on my own now and i've gathered a huge amount of knowledge, just not about what I exactly want to do with it.

Yes, NMC is Lithium-Ion, sorry for the weird way I said it. When I said "Nickel-based" or "Lithium-based" its more of a group to contain the rest- so NiMH is apart of the "Nickel Based chemistries", not the other way around since it also includes NiCd.

I have this book from known eBike community member Micah Toll that has some details I can photograph pics out of. He literally gives his books away for free all the time on his youtube page, so I don't think he'd mind a few pages floating around.

Might have to get that book or one like it.  Seeing LiFePO and NMC batteries selling for what they are, having ways of rolling my own would be nice.  I have researched making DIY Tesla walls by busting up pallets full of old laptop batteries, and it makes me wonder how many of them exploded and turned those houses into ash.

Poking around Amazon and seeing LiFePO battery packs selling for $1500 doesn't seem like a very budget-friendly option.  I also doubt that if I put an array of 250 18650 batteries in my spare tire well wouldn't get too many helpful smiles from my insurance company when they come out to do an adjustment on my smoldering van shell.

Are there any lead batteries that might be more viable than a typical run of the mill group 24?  I know golf cart batteries are high on the Ah scale, but also pretty heavy.  I do have a case of SLA 6v batteries at work.  Someone before me bought a case of those little blue-top things to replace the batteries in all of our emergency exit signs, but then they replaced the signs with LEDs that don't use them.  I would have to check to make sure they are still viable (it's been a few years), but there are probably 20-30 of those little power wheels batteries.  Like this:

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Are there any lead batteries that might be more viable than a typical run of the mill group 24?  I know golf cart batteries are high on the Ah scale, but also pretty heavy. 

There is a reason that dual GC2 'golf cart' batteries are the go-to for quality 12V deep cycle applications. They're heavier than (dual) Group 24 because not only do they supply more Ah, they also survive 2x-3x the number of 50% discharge cycles.

 Aside from the weight, those sealed-leads might be a good idea because they're built physically to resist sulphation and deep-cycle damage. Toss em' on a tender and see what can be saved; free is far better than the BMS's and electronics needed for lithium stuff. How many would you be comfortable carrying in your vehicle? How heavy are they?

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Might have to get that book or one like it.  Seeing LiFePO and NMC batteries selling for what they are, having ways of rolling my own would be nice.  I have researched making DIY Tesla walls by busting up pallets full of old laptop batteries, and it makes me wonder how many of them exploded and turned those houses into ash.

Poking around Amazon and seeing LiFePO battery packs selling for $1500 doesn't seem like a very budget-friendly option.  I also doubt that if I put an array of 250 18650 batteries in my spare tire well wouldn't get too many helpful smiles from my insurance company when they come out to do an adjustment on my smoldering van shell.

lmao no joke.

Powerwalls are... odd, pretty much what you put into them when people make them. I know of no powerwall that has died- in fact, I only know of an ebike battery that failed the dude was buying them from China off Alibaba and charged it without monitoring or without opening the package to check what he had. House was a total loss. Basically... it's time consuming, but the people who make and youtube their powerwalls (like HBPowerwall in Aus) know what they're doing and it's obvious, going as far as to use thin copper wires that will melt and kill the circuit on each battery before they can draw enough physical power to become indindeary devices.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Might have to get that book or one like it.  Seeing LiFePO and NMC batteries selling for what they are, having ways of rolling my own would be nice.  I have researched making DIY Tesla walls by busting up pallets full of old laptop batteries, and it makes me wonder how many of them exploded and turned those houses into ash.

Poking around Amazon and seeing LiFePO battery packs selling for $1500 doesn't seem like a very budget-friendly option.  I also doubt that if I put an array of 250 18650 batteries in my spare tire well wouldn't get too many helpful smiles from my insurance company when they come out to do an adjustment on my smoldering van shell.

If you intend to use the battery to its life cycles, at this point, LiFePO4 batteries are cheaper.  For instance, if you need 100A-Hr of energy, you need to buy 200A-hr for any lead batteries, but 100A-hr for LiFePO4.   Same kind of porportions for high loads, and cycle numbers.

It's more about how you would use them and how many times.

Also- if you think you can make a powerwall out of cells, I would suggest making a small one.  I tried it with some cells, and found out that you need good battery welding tools as well as needing to solder well.  Just a royal PITA that I didn't figure out until I tried it after spending money on the cells.  And the inverter.  And the BMS(s).

None the less, the construction of a "solar generator" (which is just a big battery pack with inverter and all of the safeties- the solar is not required)- is pretty simple.   The same DIY site has some plans for simple ones.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Pretty much with flooded cell batteries, more weight=better.

Are you worried about weight?

I've considered making my own salt water or Edison batteries. Neither would work well for your situation. 

Zombie update:

For now I found a sick deal on a Wen 2350w generator ($399 lightning deal on Amazon).  I'm also (again) going down the rabbit hole of making storage batteries from used/cheap 18650s and some components.  I think I have the youtube and soldering skills to put one together with a charge management system that can take 14v from the alternator to charge.

Something like THIS  or  THIS but bigger

I really want to do an 18650 battery build, but the consequences if you berkeley something up are pretty big (fire).  Do it so I can talk myself into it.

In reply to ProDarwin :

I'll strap it under the van right near the gas tank.  I'd rather die splattered into hamburger than to slowly cook  like a brisket.

In reply to ProDarwin :

Could you build a small powerhouse not connected (other than by wiring) to a larger structure? That could allow you to isolate the fire risk.

Well I read through 4 pages of this and didnt really see much in the way of solutions but those baby generators sure are cute.

• I have an ARB fridge - 60 liter Elements, and its awesome
  • Runs 1 day (24 hrs) in 90F with frequent in/out off my starter battery before it kicks into low voltage
  • Start it at home full of cold items on AC power
  • Limitless runtime if you drive 1-2 hrs/day OR use solar.
• Inverters are a waste of energy.  Nothing on your list needs an inverter.
• USB charged bluetooth speakers are super energy efficient and have an aux-in if you need that capability otherwise use your phone.  One of those plus a few external battery packs for 20 bucks off Amazon will go literally weeks.
• LED lights - I use a Milwaukee M18 LED flashlight with a 5AH battery when I go camping.  I can only imagine how long it would run for.  LED power draw is virtually zero.  Not worth the calculations
• Movies - Tablet
• DVD player - download movies onto tablet mentioned above
• Solar - if this is a permanent or semi-permanent spot, clear some trees 50 yards from camp and install a solar array.  Could be done for under $500, will run 100% of the time, quiet, no maintenance, no fuel.  Solar panels are decent even on cloudy days as long as there is enough capacity.  Before I went the generator route I would have someone who knows solar look at your exact spot in question.  I travel with a 50 foot cord for my solar panels, thats always been enough to get to a decent clearing and "catch some watts" as I call it.  

In reply to Rons :

Sure, if you are doing a powerwall type unit, but I am looking to do it for the same reasons as Curtis - camping.

93gsxturbo said:

Well I read through 4 pages of this and didnt really see much in the way of solutions but those baby generators sure are cute.

• I have an ARB fridge - 60 liter Elements, and its awesome
  • Runs 1 day (24 hrs) in 90F with frequent in/out off my starter battery before it kicks into low voltage
  • Start it at home full of cold items on AC power
  • Limitless runtime if you drive 1-2 hrs/day OR use solar.
• Inverters are a waste of energy.  Nothing on your list needs an inverter.
• USB charged bluetooth speakers are super energy efficient and have an aux-in if you need that capability otherwise use your phone.  One of those plus a few external battery packs for 20 bucks off Amazon will go literally weeks.
• LED lights - I use a Milwaukee M18 LED flashlight with a 5AH battery when I go camping.  I can only imagine how long it would run for.  LED power draw is virtually zero.  Not worth the calculations
• Movies - Tablet
• DVD player - download movies onto tablet mentioned above
• Solar - if this is a permanent or semi-permanent spot, clear some trees 50 yards from camp and install a solar array.  Could be done for under $500, will run 100% of the time, quiet, no maintenance, no fuel.  Solar panels are decent even on cloudy days as long as there is enough capacity.  Before I went the generator route I would have someone who knows solar look at your exact spot in question.  I travel with a 50 foot cord for my solar panels, thats always been enough to get to a decent clearing and "catch some watts" as I call it.  

Literally all this has been mentioned really

That Tiny Tiger generator set is probably larger than the Honda EU1000 engine and alternator if you stripped all the sound attenuation and fuel tank away. 
Bottom line is there is no way you can build a smaller, quieter generator set than the quiet offerings from Honda and others.
You really need to reduce your electrical load. Lots of very good suggestions offered so far but your biggest proposed load is the fridge. Lose it. It's not needed for a 2-3 day camping trip.

In reply to 67LS1 :

This isn't for a 2-3 day trip.  This is for a potentially 2-3 week trip with zero access to ice.  The whole point is to be as far away from civilization as possible.

The longer the time frame, the more solar or wind or hydro will be your answer. Solar is easiest because no moving parts. 
     2 or 3 weeks is a long time camping. Water supply, pit toilet, enough food for that long, clothes, etc, I assume you have all that planned out. If you are more likely to camp a week, then drive into town, honestly a good cooler with dry ice in the bottom would get it done with none of this expense. You could bring books to read and a pack of batteries for the headlamp and be good to go. You could even assume canned, freeze dried, or caught after the first week if you wanted a longer stay with no batteries, etc. 
     But assuming you really "need" electricity while camping for that long, then solar and some batteries for smaller loads, and then some type of 12V cooler opened as sparingly as possible and kept cool and insulated. It is funny that the EE with a specialization in renewable energy is the responder telling you to consider whether you really need any of it for camping. Get up with the sun, sleep with the dark, enjoy a camp fire in the evenings.