Storz wrote:92dxman wrote: I will say this..I would be interested in an EV vehicle if they had paddle shifters with it. I need something to shift when I am behind the wheel.1 speed
it makes no sense to limit an electric engine to one speed. Yes, they can be set up to spin to amazing high RPMs.. but they make their maximum torque at close to zero rpms... so you need some gearing to keep them at low speeds for best power, range, and longevity
tuna55 wrote:Flight Service wrote: In reply to tuna55: What do you think is the largest cost prohibitor, the motors, the batteries, the Federal Regs, or the different production methodologies required to build them?Batteries. A replacement for the Leaf is $5,500. There is no single component on a $30k vehicle that costs that much.
Is that your cost, or theirs (loaded question) I bet if you tried to buy all the fasteners for the Leaf it would be close to the same cost.
I agree that the batteries are the hold up. That is the #1 problem with EVs. Come on controlled discharge capacitors!
Flight Service wrote: In reply to tuna55: What do you think is the largest cost prohibitor, the motors, the batteries, the Federal Regs, or the different production methodologies required to build them?
Most of the cars (including, I suspect the Leaf) are based off of real cars, so the regulations behind the basic car is the same as a gas car.
Which says that all of the cost difference is buried in the electrification- batteries, motors, and making them.
This is a list of the electric cars for sale in the US- http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ and 6 of the 19's are plug in hybrids (so they have ICE's in them)- and most of the others are EVs on production cars.
Flight Service wrote:tuna55 wrote:Is that your cost, or theirs (loaded question) I bet if you tried to buy all the fasteners for the Leaf it would be close to the same cost. I agree that the batteries are the hold up. That is the #1 problem with EVs. Come on controlled discharge capacitors!Flight Service wrote: In reply to tuna55: What do you think is the largest cost prohibitor, the motors, the batteries, the Federal Regs, or the different production methodologies required to build them?Batteries. A replacement for the Leaf is $5,500. There is no single component on a $30k vehicle that costs that much.
Well, loaded or not, it's my cost, and they are losing money on each one.
I am positive that all of the fasteners do not add up to that cost, but regardless, the battery is a non serviceable, single part number whereas none of the other things you're trying to get at are.
mad_machine wrote:Storz wrote:it makes no sense to limit an electric engine to one speed. Yes, they can be set up to spin to amazing high RPMs.. but they make their maximum torque at close to zero rpms... so you need some gearing to keep them at low speeds for best power, range, and longevity92dxman wrote: I will say this..I would be interested in an EV vehicle if they had paddle shifters with it. I need something to shift when I am behind the wheel.1 speed
If it made "no sense" the automakers would put multi-speed gearboxes in their electric cars. So far, noone has. The early Tesla Roadsters had a two speed box that proved unreliable and ultimately not worth the additional cost/weight/complexity.
Compared to an ICE, electric motors are very efficient over a tremendous rpm range. They're doing just fine with direct drive. The Model S does a 12.3 quarter and 135mph top speed with a fixed ratio.
mfennell wrote:mad_machine wrote:If it made "no sense" the automakers would put multi-speed gearboxes in their electric cars. So far, noone has. The early Tesla Roadsters had a two speed box that proved unreliable and ultimately not worth the additional cost/weight/complexity. Compared to an ICE, electric motors are very efficient over a tremendous rpm range. They're doing just fine with direct drive. The Model S does a 12.3 quarter and 135mph top speed with a fixed ratio.Storz wrote:it makes no sense to limit an electric engine to one speed. Yes, they can be set up to spin to amazing high RPMs.. but they make their maximum torque at close to zero rpms... so you need some gearing to keep them at low speeds for best power, range, and longevity92dxman wrote: I will say this..I would be interested in an EV vehicle if they had paddle shifters with it. I need something to shift when I am behind the wheel.1 speed
Our Volt pulls just as hard (if not harder) from 30-60 than it does from 0-30 running in pure EV. Its certainly not a fast car, but it is deceptively quick.
NordicSaab wrote: My Father bought a Tesla about a year ago and has put over 30000 miles on it so far (Probably the highest mileage Tesla in the country).
Just want add that I've got a co worker with a model S - less than a year old with almost 70K miles on it. He drives portland to seattle (one charge) weekly & says its about $9 to charge it. Certainly has had is share of warranty work but as long as the tech trickles down I can see this as a win.
Flight Service wrote: We have an infrastructure problem and no one is addressing it.
Actually, when you consider that all known "Economies" are just huge Ponzi schemes, what we have here is a giant "Infrastructure Opportunity".
The North American economy ran on the development of the infrastructure for the ICE for 60 years. So, rather than just feeding the ICE based Ponzi scenario that has reached its plateau, would it not be a good idea to hit rewind, change the tittle from ICE to EV and start the ball rolling all over again? Fresh investors and manufacturing entrepreneurs thrive on developing technology and risk. There were some good years in there. If there ever is to be smart roads and cars, I would rather see the USA selling the technology to the planet rather than buying it.
nderwater wrote: Take away the taxpayer-funded subsidies and the car is much less compelling.
Take away the taxpayer funded subsidies on oil and IT is also much less compelling than it is now (and add in the costs the government incurs to keep oil flowing freely from the ME)
tuna55 wrote:Flight Service wrote: In reply to tuna55: What do you think is the largest cost prohibitor, the motors, the batteries, the Federal Regs, or the different production methodologies required to build them?Batteries. A replacement for the Leaf is $5,500. There is no single component on a $30k vehicle that costs that much.
You obviously haven't priced crate replacement engines or transmissions lately (especially 6-8 speed automatics). I recently replace the 6 speed auto in my ex-roommate's 2003 VW and the USED price for a warranteed unit (not rebuilt) was $3500. Wanna know what a new one from VW would be?
Chris_V wrote:tuna55 wrote:You obviously haven't priced crate replacement engines or transmissions lately (especially 6-8 speed automatics). I recently replace the 6 speed auto in my ex-roommate's 2003 VW and the USED price for a warranteed unit (not rebuilt) was $3500. Wanna know what a new one from VW would be?Flight Service wrote: In reply to tuna55: What do you think is the largest cost prohibitor, the motors, the batteries, the Federal Regs, or the different production methodologies required to build them?Batteries. A replacement for the Leaf is $5,500. There is no single component on a $30k vehicle that costs that much.
But you can order individual part numbers within that engine
tuna55 wrote:Chris_V wrote:But you can order individual part numbers within that enginetuna55 wrote:You obviously haven't priced crate replacement engines or transmissions lately (especially 6-8 speed automatics). I recently replace the 6 speed auto in my ex-roommate's 2003 VW and the USED price for a warranteed unit (not rebuilt) was $3500. Wanna know what a new one from VW would be?Flight Service wrote: In reply to tuna55: What do you think is the largest cost prohibitor, the motors, the batteries, the Federal Regs, or the different production methodologies required to build them?Batteries. A replacement for the Leaf is $5,500. There is no single component on a $30k vehicle that costs that much.
I wonder if you can order individual cells for the Leaf pack. They'll generally all wear out evenly, but it would reduce the largest single part cost.
GameboyRMH wrote:tuna55 wrote:I wonder if you can order individual cells for the Leaf pack. They'll generally all wear out evenly, but it would reduce the largest single part cost.Chris_V wrote:But you can order individual part numbers within that enginetuna55 wrote:You obviously haven't priced crate replacement engines or transmissions lately (especially 6-8 speed automatics). I recently replace the 6 speed auto in my ex-roommate's 2003 VW and the USED price for a warranteed unit (not rebuilt) was $3500. Wanna know what a new one from VW would be?Flight Service wrote: In reply to tuna55: What do you think is the largest cost prohibitor, the motors, the batteries, the Federal Regs, or the different production methodologies required to build them?Batteries. A replacement for the Leaf is $5,500. There is no single component on a $30k vehicle that costs that much.
Not currently.
Chris_V wrote:tuna55 wrote:You obviously haven't priced crate replacement engines or transmissions lately (especially 6-8 speed automatics). I recently replace the 6 speed auto in my ex-roommate's 2003 VW and the USED price for a warranteed unit (not rebuilt) was $3500. Wanna know what a new one from VW would be?Flight Service wrote: In reply to tuna55: What do you think is the largest cost prohibitor, the motors, the batteries, the Federal Regs, or the different production methodologies required to build them?Batteries. A replacement for the Leaf is $5,500. There is no single component on a $30k vehicle that costs that much.
Just so you know, replacement part costs are not really that related to production costs. It may be close, it may not be.
But the relative price of an EV to an equivallent ICE is a better indicator. If they cost the same, everyone would be trying to flood the market with EV's that cost exactly the same as the ICE version. Make everyone feel better.
really- the EV does not need some kind of magical micro car to be successful. Stories about the Tesla should be an example of that- it's a really big car- what I would call D class, and it's really cheap to operate. I'm 100% sure that if we could make an EV D car that's the same price as an ICE and equally capable as the Tesla, they would sell really well.
tuna55 wrote:Chris_V wrote:But you can order individual part numbers within that enginetuna55 wrote:You obviously haven't priced crate replacement engines or transmissions lately (especially 6-8 speed automatics). I recently replace the 6 speed auto in my ex-roommate's 2003 VW and the USED price for a warranteed unit (not rebuilt) was $3500. Wanna know what a new one from VW would be?Flight Service wrote: In reply to tuna55: What do you think is the largest cost prohibitor, the motors, the batteries, the Federal Regs, or the different production methodologies required to build them?Batteries. A replacement for the Leaf is $5,500. There is no single component on a $30k vehicle that costs that much.
But to rebuild that engine USING those parts adds labor and the cost actually goes UP overall. It was going to be $4k to REBUILD the existing trans to replace the failed parts but keep the case, gears and most of the internals.
For example, had I wanted to have my BMW 740iL engine rebuilt when it hydrolocked and drove a piston out te bottom of the neinge, it owudl have been $7-10k. That's with individual parts due to a single failure. On a car that was worth MAYBE $5k in good shape.
So your concern about the cost of the batteries is a bit overblown and disingenuous. Even if you can buy individual replacement parts inside an engine or trans, the engine or trans is often replaced AS A UNIT and thus the cost to do so OR to rebuild it has to be factored in and compared to.
In reply to Chris_V:
It's not disingenuous - You can't DIY it, there is no other way except for buying the whole thing. Plus, as Alfa noted above, Nissan is losing money on every $5500 battery pack they sell whereas BMW is totally making lots of cashola on their engine unit.
I see development of cheap electricity(thorium based nukes), and synthetic, carbon neutral(scrub CO2 from atmosphere), liquid gasoline cost competitive with today's natural stuff happening before electric cars are feasible on a large scale, if ever in our lifetimes. Putting the cart before the horse and all that.
Screw it, I'll get a horse.
Hey Lesly, learn me....
tuna55 wrote: In reply to Chris_V: It's not disingenuous - You can't DIY it, there is no other way except for buying the whole thing. Plus, as Alfa noted above, Nissan is losing money on every $5500 battery pack they sell whereas BMW is totally making lots of cashola on their engine unit.
Most peopel don't DIY an engine rebuild on a new car or nearly new car, so yes, it IS a bit disengenuous.
Chris_V wrote:tuna55 wrote: In reply to Chris_V: It's not disingenuous - You can't DIY it, there is no other way except for buying the whole thing. Plus, as Alfa noted above, Nissan is losing money on every $5500 battery pack they sell whereas BMW is totally making lots of cashola on their engine unit.Most peopel don't DIY an engine rebuild on a new car or nearly new car, so yes, it IS a bit disengenuous.
not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.
I am totally being sincere and not pretending
I think what Tuna was getting at is that engines are componentized--a head gasket can be changed on one bank of a V8 without replacing the whole engine, valve seals can be renewed, or a damaged oil plan is easily replaced for example. If a cell goes bad in a Leaf's battery pack, or road debris punctures part of the pack that's it--the whole thing requires replacing.
But you're not comparing apples and other apples, or comparing how most people will be using the parts/components/assemblies, whether by accident or on purpose, therefore yes, you are not being sincere.
For most people the cost of the battery pack is, after the waranty runs out, very similar if not less than, the cost of the failure of either the engine or transmission, if either has to be replaced OR rebuilt. Therefore your statement, semantically linking your comparison to an individual part in the engine or transmission, was intentionally obtuse (the alternative was that you really were being ignorant of how the average person would end up paying for a failed engine or transmission). That's the way the word disingenuous is usually used.
Simply put, the cost of the battery pack is, in fact, similar or less than the cost of the engine or transmission in a typical $35k gas powered car as far as the real world buyers of new cars are concerned,
In reply to Chris_V:
Well, you can say that if you want, but I assure you I am being sincere. I just disagree. Much like nderwater above said, you can repair and replace many components of an engine or transmission and you cannot do that to a battery pack.
Kenny_McCormic wrote: carbon neutral(scrub CO2 from atmosphere)
Scrubbing CO2 from the atmosphere would be carbon negative (and this takes energy). Not introducing more fossil carbon into the atmosphere would be carbon neutral.
I'd still put my bets on EV technology over bio/synth gasoline. EV technology's hurtling forward like something from the computer industry, and biogasoline hasn't gone anywhere since the Carter administration - fossil companies have interfered by buying patents and sitting on the technology, but the same is true of EVs. Synthetic gasoline has been under production the whole time and it's barely competitive with petrogasoline.
nderwater wrote: I think what Tuna was getting at is that engines are componentized--a head gasket can be changed on one bank of a V8 without replacing the whole engine, valve seals can be renewed, or a damaged oil plan is easily replaced for example. If a cell goes bad in a Leaf's batter pack, or road debris punctures part of the pack and doesn't burn the car to the ground that's it--the whole thing requires replacing.
FTFY, li-ion makes gasoline look like freakin water from a safety standpoint.
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