Tipping is starting to really pick me

wae said:

GameboyRMH said:

wae said:

GameboyRMH said:

So in effect, you're tipping the employer rather than the employee?

No, the employer is required to subsidize the diners should they not tip enough.

That sounds like a smart-alecky way to state the same thing. Tips are supposed to be a bonus on top of base pay. This tip credit system turns a tip into base pay so that the employer doesn't have to pay it. The employer immediately gets more money out of that arrangement but the employee doesn't until they make enough in tips to exceed the tip credit amount, which is generally close to 2/3rds of their base pay.

With an extremely messed-up pay system like that it's no wonder the tipping situation is getting out ot control. Apparently in the US only 7 states +DC don't have this tip credit system. Get rid of this and businesses won't be incentivized to expand income through tipping because the money will go straight to employees as originally intended.

I mean, yeah, that's exactly how I intended it because I thought the same thing about your statement.  In effect, the law says that the employee must get 100% of their tips in order to claim the tip credit.  So, in effect, you're tipping the employee.  Federal law says that there is a minimum wage of $7.25.  If the employee can get $5.12 of that from tips, federal law says the business is in compliance if they only pay the worker $2.13/hr.

And, honestly, if you're working as a waiter or waitress and you're not clocking at least $5/hr in tips you either need to find a busier establishment or a different job.  18% on a single $28 check would be $5 and you're at the federal minimum right there.  Surely you'd have more than one party of two per hour?

We're having a discussion about national solutions to localized problems. That Federal kicker to minimum wage doesn't apply in my area.
https://www.ddir.com/employment-2/
$20 hr starting wage. Now I will admit this is the king of the burger flipping joints when it comes to jobs. But my engineering job for a large aerospace company doesn't have much better benefits, though roughly double the pay. One would expect engineering to pay better than burger flippers.
 

Eliminate the restaurant exemption for minimum wage.
Drive tipping to be a reward for good service rather than an expectation for doing the job. Not sure how to accomplish this but it actually should start with the business owner, who is not incentivized to do this thing.

In reply to ProDarwin :

I did the Pacuare River rapids in Costa Rica a few years ago.  I had a great guide and I wanted to tip him well but he couldn't accept a credit card transaction and I didn't bring cash (risk of it going overboard or it getting soaked) so all I could do was buy him a bunch of beer at a little pub.

He seemed OK with that though. 

In reply to GameboyRMH :

It really sounds like you're misunderstanding how this works.

Haven't read through the thread entirely, so I apologize if some of this is repeated. 

I don't like tipping for most food service. The fact is, it isn't that hard of a gig. And why is it based off of a percentage of the price? Best service I've ever had was at a Mexican restaurant. Total bill for 3 people came out to $27. We left a $20 tip. The best service I'd had before that was from the Awful Waffle. On the other hand, I've been to some fine dining places where a single plate of food was $60 and the service was atrocious. So why would a crappy tip for crappy service there be $15 (total bill was $150 for 2 people), whereas the greasy spoons had amazing service and a good tip would be $6? 

Also, why did it go from 10% - 15% - 20% as the "bad - average - good" scale to 18% - 20% - 25%? And why are the places always including tax on it? 

Tipping needs to go away entirely, IMHO. Pay your employees fairly. Pass the increased cost on to me, I don't care. You're doing it in a more unscrupulous way right now. 

My personal tips as part of my income story: I worked as a caddie for 10 years at a non-tipping club. Our caddie rates were higher than most courses, but the overall pay [per loop] was lower than other courses- at least for the top caddies like me. At some point, they put in a bonus program where the members paid an extra $10 each per round (and I was carrying 2 bags) and then at the end of the month they would do some sort of stacked ranking based on our ratings, number of loops, time with the club, etc. I was consistently getting one of the top 3 spots, and that more or less constituted the tips I did not get. 

I still did not earn what I would have per loop that I could have at some other nearby courses. I stuck with this club for a few reasons - merit and seniority, a scholarship that they offered, the fact that my brothers worked there, and just the amount of play. I earned more overall at this course because there was more work. 

Johnboyjjb said: One would expect engineering to pay better than burger flippers.

Great example of the middle class poors blaming the poor poors for wanting more money and being the problem. Well done!

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

wae said:

It would require a rather severe cultural shift which

I hate hate hate hate hate this argument.  When applied to any issue, not just this one.

If we can't change because it requires change, we are doomed.

And for the folks saying things like "I only make $15/hr as an [insert swanky job here], I don't want burger flippers making what I make," you do realize that if we had kept up with a proportional minimum wage, we'd be at about $13/hr now as a minimum and you'd be making $25.  Instead, the wage gap has just tripled in the last decade.

I make $37k a year working 60 hours a week.  I would be thrilled if the poor people flipping burgers could make more.  Leveling the pay gap and giving people the means to make ends meet?  Yes please.

According to ZipRecruiter, it looks like the national average for wait staff is $16/hr. I'm pretty sure they will be rather pissed if y'all force them to minimum wage with no tips. It looks like the better ones are making closer to $60k a year. Only the bottom 5% are making close to minimum wage while the top 5 % are making close to $30/hr. I think y'all are trying to fix a problem that isn't really a problem. 

ProDarwin said:

wae said:

It would require a rather severe cultural shift which

I hate hate hate hate hate this argument.  When applied to any issue, not just this one.

If we can't change because it requires change, we are doomed.

This is a country where people got incensed at being told to wash their hands.

yes we're doomed.

In reply to Toyman! :

One big potential issue is that people working the counters and drive-throughs of the local Taco Bells etc. are likely not categorized as "waiters" - by using that job description you've probably skewed your results toward people moving silver platters at fancy restaurants. If you try the same search for "fast food worker" you get a slightly lower average and a much smaller range:

https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/FAST-FOOD-Worker-Salary-per-Hour (Edit: This again isn't ideal, as most places that accept tips are probably somewhere between the two - but this gives a good point of comparison)

Next, the tipping pay structure is still a problem for customers even if it isn't one for employees, that's what this thread was originally about.

The fact that the employees are generally making over minimum wage while the tip credit system is widespread also shows that employees' base pay is largely being paid through "tips," which is a pretty freaking weird and convoluted scheme.

Fast food workers aren't considered tipped employees so they are already paid minimum wage and above. Driving the wait staff into the same position will get them paid much like fast food workers. Which is kind of my point. 

Why would a waiter want to make as much as a fast food worker when they already make more?

In what way is it convoluted? The money goes from the customer straight to the worker. It doesn't pass through the business's books or taxes. In many cases, cash tips don't go through taxes at all which is why I always tip in cash. It is the purest form of employment. They provide a service. They get paid. How much they are paid depends on the service provided. That's why you can have $2/hr people making $60k a year. 

Toyman! said:

In what way is it convoluted? The money goes from the customer straight to the worker. It doesn't pass through the business's books or taxes. In many cases, cash tips don't go through taxes at all which is why I always tip in cash. It is the purest form of employment. They provide a service. They get paid. How much they are paid depends on the service provided. That's why you can have $2/hr people making $60k a year.

Paying for labor through a supposedly voluntary fee in addition to the cost of the products delivered, when the labor cost would otherwise be paid for by the employer is not something you see in many industries. It's not even that common in the world of charities and nonprofits. Generally specific products and services have specific costs attached to them which can be known before purchasing and I for one like the straightforward deterministic nature of that, and from this thread it looks like that's a common preference.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

How many waiters or waitresses have replied in here? Don't you think it would be a good idea to ask them what they want?

Oh wait, it's been asked. And the answer is much like every waiter or waitress I've ever known.

https://www.lightspeedhq.com/blog/impact-minimum-wage-increase/#:~:text=Over%2068%25%20of%20restaurant%20staff,tipping%20as%20their%20payment%20method.

Over 68% of restaurant staff said they would not take an increase in hourly wage if tipping were removed. This isn’t surprising, as a past Lightspeed study indicated that 97% of servers preferred tipping as their payment method. 

So, let me say this again.  

I think y'all are trying to fix a problem that isn't really a problem. 

In reply to Toyman! :

Even if it's not a problem for employees at all, if it's widely hated by customers, it's still a problem. Very common issue in telecoms and energy for example.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Hmm, I don't know of many customers it bothers either. 

I guess it's good enough though. I mean customers are why we still have slave labor and sweat shops in third-world countries. 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

Johnboyjjb said: One would expect engineering to pay better than burger flippers.

Great example of the middle class poors blaming the poor poors for wanting more money and being the problem. Well done!

At no point did I blame poor people for wanting more money. That quoted statement simply says that engineers in general make more money than burger flippers. And one would expect that.

Reading it any other way is to be intentionally asinine and stupid.

I think I'm done here. Intelligent conversation cannot proceed when one side reduces itself to name calling. And now both sides have done it.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

That sounds like a smart-alecky way to state the same thing. Tips are supposed to be a bonus on top of base pay. This tip credit system turns a tip into base pay so that the employer doesn't have to pay it. The employer immediately gets more money out of that arrangement but the employee doesn't until they make enough in tips to exceed the tip credit amount, which is generally close to 2/3rds of their base pay.

With an extremely messed-up pay system like that it's no wonder the tipping situation is getting out ot control. Apparently in the US only 7 states +DC don't have this tip credit system. Get rid of this and businesses won't be incentivized to expand income through tipping because the money will go straight to employees as originally intended.

Tips aren't supposed to be a bonus. Servers are supposed to be more like commissioned sales people, except they sell service instead of products. Serving isn't supposed to be a normal job with an hourly pay rate. The servers generally work for tips, which should be many times higher than minimum wage if they give good service. A good server prefers it this way. That is also the nature of why tipping is customary. It wasn't a problem in the past, because both the servers and customers understood this. The waters were muddied when we started going away  from this and went to higher base pays, sharing tips, and asking for tips for non serving roles. The problem now is that customers and businesses are realizing that they really don't need servers. The food isn't any better Vs. ordering and picking up at a counter. You can get your own refills. The only difference between a fast casual restaurant and a sit down is the experience. If the server doesn't deliver the experience, their is no need for them or their tip. 

In reply to Beer Baron :

Boost_Crazy said:

Expecting a tip doesn't help anyone.

Yup. We agree on this.

So how could we practically fix it?

Where we seem to disagree, and my main point, is that punishing service workers by not tipping them or tipping a bare minimum amount is not going to solve the problem and only serves to injure the people with the least power to change the way the system works.

I would love to see us move to a model like what there is in Europe where: service staff earns a livable (if modest) hourly wage, tips are optional gratuities for good service, basic health care is available and not tied to a specific employer.

How do we get there or somewhere like that?

I think Toyman said it best, we are trying to fix a problem that isn't there. Your examples are individual problems, not systemic problems. If anything, I think that the biggest issue is societies' willingness to accept poor results. It's not good for anyone. I get that you want to help, but your solutions have the opposite effect long term. Those rewarded for poor performance are much less likely to improve and gain more opportunity, and their jobs are likely to disappear completely when it's clear that they offer little value to the business and customer. 

If I see some kind of tablet acting as the checkout, it's a sign that I'm going to be asked to tip for something I'm not used to getting asked to tip for.

Speaking of which.....


 

Toyman! said:

In reply to GameboyRMH 

I think y'all are trying to fix a problem that isn't really a problem. 

Don't worry, they'll move the goalposts to show you why it's a problem, even if the people who wait tables say it's not. 

Hey, everybody! Look! I found the second book of the real estate thread.

I'm not sure this is the right place, but I have something I want to get in here.

Just the tip. 

Tipping is directly paying for service. It's between you and the person, directly. It's the most efficient transaction in the entire economy. Embrace it!!!! Be generous! Be kind! 

If that didn't get the message across. 

Oh for berkeleys sake, leave a decent tip. Are they busy? Is the wait staff hustling?  "It's not hard work." Are you berkeleying serious? shiny happy people. Every damn, stingy, mother berkeleyer!

Lock it!!!!

In reply to tester (Forum Supporter) :

Since I started this discussion, and you wish to end it on your terms, I feel the need to clarify my complaint which you perhaps did not read in the first place. I have grudgingly tipped appropriate amounts all my life, back to when I was a student depending on tips 35 years ago. But the trend now is to demand increasingly large tips for increasingly less service in increasingly more industries. I object, and I do not consider myself a stingy mofo for objecting.  Did that message get across?