Top Cop is Stepping Down

Grizz wrote: A small incident that resulted in the deaths of a few hundred people on two borders, and since they still haven't retrieved all of the firearms used, will more than likely add a few more to that number as time goes on. Totally not important that a branch of the DOJ berkeleyed up that badly.

Interesting question for you on this, though; do you really think that if the DOJ hadn't had this (admittedly, bone-headed) program, those deaths would not have happened? Like, the cartels would not have been able to get ahold of guns any other way? Because, really, that's not a likely scenario.

Yes, they authorized the sale of guns that killed people. And that sucks. But those people were going to get guns anyway. They're not hard to get.

In reply to Grizz:

He just lapsed over all that stuff and turned on "The Real World" on MTV.....rollseyes

Fueled by Caffeine wrote:

bravenrace wrote: In reply to Fueled by Caffeine: Hey, I thought you were out?

I'm just screwing with bob now for fun.

Now that I can agree with!

Really folks? While not completely opposite views to FBC/Iggy, I'm pretty far to the... well, the libertarian side. Greatly dislike Obama and his administration.

But he's right. FF wasn't that big a deal. Actually, I think that I agree with him completely on this issue. As Holder's other actions, I can't talk to them because I don't know about them. FF was the only one that got big air time.

In reply to dculberson:

The high profile one was one of our own Border Patrol agents.....and FWIW, its equally bad they allowed any of that to happen, let alone while covering it up, shutting down firearms dealers who knowingly or unknowingly participated in their own operation.

Well now Grizz, you may have identified the prime reason why I can't be bothered any more with it all. I have my bread and circus (tv and pizza but you get the idea). Our modern day Rome is burning around our ears but the problems are positively overwhelming for the majority of us and until there is an MRAP on my street or food riots at my grocery store I'm going to continue slogging along like a good little drone until such time as I shuffle off this mortal coil.

After all, what can "I" do?

yamaha wrote: In reply to dculberson: The high profile one was one of our own Border Patrol agents.....and FWIW, its equally bad they allowed any of that to happen, let alone while covering it up, shutting down firearms dealers who knowingly or unknowingly participated in their own operation.

OK, but are you saying he wouldn't have been shot if it wasn't for F&F? That somehow the person that shot him wouldn't have been able to get a gun otherwise?

And the rest has nothing to do with what I asked/posted.

OK guys, I am going to go buy a few thousand guns and sell them off to known drug cartels at the border for a tidy profit.

I expect you all to stand up for me and tell the prosecutor that it's no big deal because it won't result in thousands of deaths, just a few hundred that probably were in danger of dying anyway.

KyAllroad wrote: Our modern day Rome is burning around our ears

eyeroll of course it is.

tuna55 wrote: OK guys, I am going to go buy a few thousand guns and sell them off to known drug cartels at the border for a tidy profit. I expect you all to stand up for me and tell the prosecutor that it's no big deal because it won't result in thousands of deaths, just a few hundred that probably were in danger of dying anyway.

Because that's totally what I'm saying.

In reply to dculberson: No way to say honestly, E36 M3 happens, and the cartels have a lot of weaponry. My point is that the Gummint shouldn't have looked at a failed op and thought ramping the stupidity up to 11 was a good idea.

Whether or not those people would be dead anyway doesn't matter. They're dead, and our government is largely responsible.

tuna55 wrote: OK guys, I am going to go buy a few thousand guns and sell them off to known drug cartels at the border for a tidy profit. I expect you all to stand up for me and tell the prosecutor that it's no big deal because it won't result in thousands of deaths, just a few hundred that probably were in danger of dying anyway.

You need some help? I mean, it's no big deal so I can likely lend a hand if you need.

I'm just going to throw a little fuel on the fire here....cause I'm an instigator and all.

Why do you folks keep saying that Fast and Furious is responsible for additional deaths? All we did was give them guns. Guns don't kill--- people do........right? I mean if they didn't have the guns, they probably would have killed each other with sticks, or rocks or dead flounders right?

Seriously though-----let's keep this civil.

Grizz wrote: In reply to dculberson: No way to say honestly, E36 M3 happens, and the cartels have a lot of weaponry. My point is that the Gummint shouldn't have looked at a failed op and thought ramping the stupidity up to 11 was a good idea. Whether or not those people would be dead anyway doesn't matter. They're dead, and our government is largely responsible.

This, accountability is rule #1 when it comes to government. Without it you have nothing.

Joe, the problem was, we know for a fact the Border agent was killed by one of the weapons from this failed op. The rest is usually speculation anyways.

I think citizens tends to poorly evaluate the performance of appointed officials. These are folks who in a lot of cases give up pretty cushy jobs outside of the public eye, where they are generally regarded favorably by their peers, or in some cases considered experts, and usually make a pretty decent salary, to take a job where every mistake is scrutinized and held against them. Meanwhile, there are business and financial sector leaders who are gradually undermining the vast majority of people, destroying livelihoods, and in general just messing up our country for their own gain, who go relatively unnoticed.

In the case of public servants like our Attn General, they are selected because they are one of the few with necessary qualifications. This isn't just some rich dude who paid a few billions for a campaign and got elected. They may be friends with the President or rub shoulders with other politicians, but in general, most appointed officials are highly qualified. That doesn't mean they are without error; but simply put, very few people could do their job.

If every possible cabinet appointee candidate turned down the President by saying "Mr. President I don't believe I'm qualified", our government would fall apart, our armed forced with disintegrate, and our economy would collapse. In order to progress, eventually someone has to step up and take on the roll along with the risk that goes with.

For that, I commend Mr. Holder.

That being said, a willingness to step out into the public eye tends to favor those who are confident, and sometimes that overconfidence can be detrimental to ones performance in office. Having worked in local government and met quite a few aspiring politicians, there is a fine line between someone who is confident and considerate, and someone who is shady.

In reply to PHeller:

Wow.

Joe Gearin wrote: I'm just going to throw a little fuel on the fire here....cause I'm an instigator and all. Why do you folks keep saying that Fast and Furious is responsible for additional deaths? All we did was give them guns. Guns don't kill--- people do........right? I mean if they didn't have the guns, they probably would have killed each other with sticks, or rocks or dead flounders right? Seriously though-----let's keep this civil.

Say I sell a knife to you, knowing full well that you have a habit of stabbing the ever loving hell out of people. And Lo and Behold, you stab the E36 M3 out of some people and they die. Do I get out of that scot free? Should I get out of that scot free?

By the by, playing Stabbin Joe Gearin in the Tv movie playing in my head:

E: Or putting it another way, legally, the ATF frowns on people selling guns to felons because they think exactly this happens. If they catch you doing it they try to nail your ass to the wall. Why then, do they get a pass? The police(in all forms) need to be held accountable when they do E36 M3 like this, and maybe it wont happen as much.

In reply to PHeller:

His ego led to many failed challenges of state laws, constitutional amendments, and such. If the Supreme Court hadn't upheld Indiana's Voter ID law in 2008, he'd probably be here wasting our time and money.

In reply to yamaha:

Right. And I wasn't necessarily judging him because I'm no legal expert, but I also believe that appointed officials have anything but glamorous positions.

Grizz wrote: They're dead, and our government is largely responsible.

Not in my book - the person pulling the trigger is largely responsible. Unless we're now blaming the gun dealers and manufacturers for every shooting, too.

PHeller wrote: In reply to yamaha: Right. And I wasn't necessarily judging him because I'm no legal expert, but I also believe that appointed officials have anything but glamorous positions.

Don't tell POTUS that (I'm ducking now..)

Notice I said "appointed", as I firmly believe being President is high on some peoples lists of things to accomplish. Ask Trump about that.

In reply to PHeller:

I was referring to the current POTUS.

In reply to dculberson:

Yes, the individual person is responsible, but in this case, so is the agency that circumvented OUR OWN LAWS to allow these criminals to get their hands on these particular weapons. In this instance, as they went around the laws they're supposed to uphold/enforce, they need to be held accountable.

PHeller wrote: In reply to yamaha: Right. And I wasn't necessarily judging him because I'm no legal expert, but I also believe that appointed officials have anything but glamorous positions.

Which they want... and rarely for reasons like "the common good".