Towing Horsepower in the UK

I was watching something the other day that took place in modern-day England and someone mentioned that their daughter wanted to buy a horse. That got me thinking, if you live near Clarkson and want to tow 2 horses around, what vehicle do you buy? 

We know from Top Gear that people tow caravans with Honda Civics. Trailers are lighter and have lower tongue weights, so people tow with things that we would turn our nose up at. But horses are heavier, what heppens when you need to move up a weight class? 

Clarkson uses a Ranger Rover, and the Defender is also a popular option. 7700lbs is the max GVWR in the UK, so adding a 5000#Discovery to a 1000# trailer means you can haul about 1700# of horses. Not sure how much horses weigh, but I guess 900#, so that's pretty tight. You might need a second car for the tack. Range Rovers and Audi Q7s are $$$, so diesel pickups and SUVs like the Ford Ranger and Kia Sorrento are popular alternatives. 

If you got your license more than 28 years ago, or want to take a test for a special towing license, you can up your GVWR considerably, but your vehicle options don't open You can drive a Sprinter or similar light commercial van, or import a Ram pickup, but odds are you can't daily drive it.  LHD, 6mpg, and an 8-foot width don't play well in Chiswick. Bottom line, its not easy to tow your own across the UK if it weighs a lot. 

In the US, we don't even think of these things. Literally anyone with the funds can daily drive a full-size truck with a 12,000 tow rating and hurl 26,000 pounds down the highway with no special training at all. I don't know if that's the height of American freedom or stupidity, but it is what it is. 

In reply to pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) :

If we're talking about a large draft horse such as a Percheron, adult weights start around 1900 lbs. and top out around 2600.

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:

...7700lbs is the max GVWR in the UK...

GVWR or GCWR? Your example was for 7700 GCWR.

It would be incredibly dumb to have a GCWR limit that basically dictates the lighter the vehicle the more you can tow with it.

IIRC vehicles like (older) Range Rovers and Discoverys are rated to tow 3.5 metric tons in the UK, which is why every shady fifteenth hand car dealer has one. 

Driven5 said:

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:

...7700lbs is the max GVWR in the UK...

GVWR or GCWR? Your math was for 7700 GCWR.

It would be incredibly dumb to have a GCWR limit that basically dictates the lighter the vehicle the more you can tow with it.

But that's what happens, isn't it? Looking at the current Ram trucks, the 2WD trucks have a higher tow rating than the 4WD because they have the same GCWR.

I did wonder the same thing in Australia. I frequently tow a 13k trailer with a couple of race cars in it. If I wanted to do that in Australia, I'm not sure what I'd drive. And if I was doing it for personal reasons in the US, I wouldn't need any special license or inspection. Because I do it commercially, I do have to have technical and medical inspections, logbooks, weight checks, hour of operation limits, etc. All good ideas.

Keith Tanner said:

Driven5 said:

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:

...7700lbs is the max GVWR in the UK...

GVWR or GCWR? Your math was for 7700 GCWR.

It would be incredibly dumb to have a GCWR limit that basically dictates the lighter the vehicle the more you can tow with it.

But that's what happens, isn't it? Looking at the current Ram trucks, the 2WD trucks have a higher tow rating than the 4WD because they have the same GCWR.

That's different. The 2wd of of the same truck also still has the same wheelbase, brakes, frame, transmission, differential, etc. I'm talking about an F150 is allowed to tow 350, a Ranger is allowed to tow 910, and a Maverick is allowed to tow 2380.

Keith the F150 is sold in Australia, and there are Silverados imported and converted to RHD, also there would be the Japanese Fuso (Mitsubishi) and Hino (Toyota) and the Koreans Hyundai and Kia.

re the horse box question Ford, Toyota, and Mitsubishi pickups, then throw small Fusos and Hinos and throw in Mercedes and you're well beyond Range Rovers.

It bears mentioning that there are ways other than a trailer to transport horses....

Driven5 said:

Keith Tanner said:

Driven5 said:

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:

...7700lbs is the max GVWR in the UK...

GVWR or GCWR? Your math was for 7700 GCWR.

It would be incredibly dumb to have a GCWR limit that basically dictates the lighter the vehicle the more you can tow with it.

But that's what happens, isn't it? Looking at the current Ram trucks, the 2WD trucks have a higher tow rating than the 4WD because they have the same GCWR.

That's different. The 2wd of of the same truck also still has the same wheelbase, brakes, frame, transmission, differential, etc. I'm talking about an F150 is allowed to tow 350, a Ranger is allowed to tow 910, and a Maverick is allowed to tow 2380.

It's an example of a GCWR limit that dicates the lighter the vehicle, the more you can tow with it. 

The F150, Maverick and Ranger all have different GCWRs. The maximum number in the UK (if that's what it is, because there's obviously a bit of confusion there) doesn't dictate that all vehicles have to reach that number, merely that they cannot exceed it.

They have some very lightweight horse trailers in Europe. They tend to use an aluminum base with a fiberglass shell and surge brakes. We saw lots being towed by Volvo wagons. The other thing that's very common is using a specially fitted out straight truck.

Rons said:

Keith the F150 is sold in Australia, and there are Silverados imported and converted to RHD, also there would be the Japanese Fuso (Mitsubishi) and Hino (Toyota) and the Koreans Hyundai and Kia.

re the horse box question Ford, Toyota, and Mitsubishi pickups, then throw small Fusos and Hinos and throw in Mercedes and you're well beyond Range Rovers.

The F150 isn't rated to tow my trailer, even in the US. The version sold in Australia has a GCWR of just under 16k lbs. Hinos are chassis cabs with no beds, and a quick peek at the spec sheet shows they're not in the range either - although I do appreciate them listing the tensile strength of the frame :) Fusos are also chassis cabs but it looks like they may have the ratings.

My thoughts were based on the other vehicles I saw on the road last time I was there, which was about 15 years ago. Towing one race car, sure. Two? I think you'd end up going with a full commercial rig. Also, far fewer trailers on the road than in my area. Around here, you use a trailer for your small lawn business. I suspect there you'd use a van.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

The Mav/Ranger/F150 example is what would be the case based on the OP's example, which is the context for what I said in addition to why I quoted and specifically referred to it the way I did. Unless taken out of context, it has zero to do with curb weight vs (mfg) GCWR within a single model and everything to do with an apparent (govt) mandated GCWR covering all curb/GVWR/GCWR vehicles capable of meeting or exceeding it. To say it another more explicit way, the OP's example would basically mean the lighter duty the vehicle the more you are allowed to tow with it.

Which is why I was trying to clarify if the UK limit is for GVWR as stated, or GCWR as in the example. In the specifically stated context of some 7700 pound limit under a basic license, GVWR would make sense, GCWR would just be dumb.

...Or considering that 7700 is such a common UK tow rating, perhaps that's in reference to a trailer GVWR license limit?

Lots of horsey folks in the UK haul horses in box trucks.

Having hauled a variety of horse trailers in my life, those lightweight, single horse trailers are sketchy as frig for load and unload.

I'm reading that the gross combined weight of a vehicle and a trailer is a touch over 18k pounds. 

The UK says the Touareg can tow 7700 pounds over there as well as over here. That would give you enough to haul a couple of horses and a trailer. 

Good question about GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) or GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating). Its neither, its actually maximum authorized mass (MAM). As far as I can tell MAM aligns with GCWR, so my error there. 

I saw the Budweiser Clydesdales in Bush Gardens once, draft horses are just damned impressive. 

Maybe this is a dumb question, but Europe in general is considerably less litigious than the US. Would it be possible for the same vehicles to have different ratings based on location?

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:

Good question about GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) or GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating). Its neither, its actually maximum authorized mass (MAM). As far as I can tell MAM aligns with GCWR, so my error there. 

Quick search brought me to https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained and https://www.gov.uk/driving-licence-categories

Looks like MAM is GVW and GTW (Gross Train Weight) or 'combined MAM' is GCW. So the 'standard' BE license should allow MAM/CVW up to 7700lb for the vehicle AND up to 7700lb for the trailer (15400lb GTW/GCW max), or GTW/GCW up to 18150 if licensed before 1997.

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:

I saw the Budweiser Clydesdales in Bush Gardens once, draft horses are just damned impressive. 

Yeah, a Clydesdale, Shire, or other draft horse can weigh as much as Miata.

RevRico said:

Maybe this is a dumb question, but Europe in general is considerably less litigious than the US. Would it be possible for the same vehicles to have different ratings based on location?

IIRC the European and UK tow ratings can be a lot higher but there also much stricter limits on towing.

Like 45mph speed limit while towing.  Americans would scoff at that.  Hell, I'm probably more safety-minded than most when it comes to towing, and I've doubled that while towing a small trailer with a car.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Depends a little on the country, but in large parts of the EU and ex-EU, towing (and truck/lorry) speed limits top out at 80km/h - 90km/h, with speed limits on more rural roads being lower. France at least used to have a higher speed limit (110km/h-120km/h IIRC) on towing, so one of the "towing hacks" when I lived in Europe was to get a large French barge for towing if you didn't want a Range Rover/G Class Mercedes or similar.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:

I saw the Budweiser Clydesdales in Bush Gardens once, draft horses are just damned impressive. 

Yeah, a Clydesdale, Shire, or other draft horse can weigh as much as Miata.

 

For perspective, the two black horses are ours, the grey is our friend's mare.

The small black one is an American Quarterhorse, he's 15 hands tall at the shoulder which is 60 inches.

The large black one is an Oldenburg / Percheron cross, he's 18-2, 74 inches. He's a big boy and very friendly. I'd bet he can out-accelerate a Miata over a short distance.