Tracking Teen Drivers

bravenrace wrote: We've had a large increase in teen deaths in the last year or two. My friend lost both of her kids in an accident right out front of their house. The cause? Another teen in an old Mach I driving 90 in a 35 zone. That's not going to be my kid.

A tracker is not going to prevent that. It might tell you how fast they were going when they were hit. It may prevent them from being the idiot speeding though.

I am only 27 with no kids so I can't understand exactly where you are coming from but I can give you my experiences. Like everyone else I did some stupid stuff but at this point have still not been in an accident. Went to my first autocross at 16 years old with my dad. He had me save for my first car (85 RX-7 GSL-SE) then bought it for me but made me pay for insurance, gas, repairs, registration etc.

If there was a tracker in my car then I would have probably just ridden with friends if were were going to do anything "fun". In general I was much more comfortable driving myself using my judgement then riding with a friend and I believe that in general I made better decisions. I also did not have a cell phone until I was 20 and just knew I better be home by midnight or else. There was no checking in or constant communication. I liked this aspect and made me feel trusted. At this point in time (1998-2002) most kids that had a cell phone had parents that wanted to know when they got to dinner, left dinner, started a movie and when they were leaving for home.

If you do it and they know it then it might prevent them from being stupid. They will also get around it.

If you do it and they don't know the first time you bust them they will feel very betrayed then get around it from that point forward.

If you dont do it then you just have to trust them and would always wonder what if in the event something happened.

It really ends up being a lose, lose, lose in some way.

Okay, I'm not a parent, etc. etc. But I've got a couple of things I want to clarify:

Are you worried about your kids going to place you don't want them to be and doing things you don't want them to do? Or are you worried about them driving too fast and recklessly?

If the latter, how about instead of tracking your kids, you Track your kids? This is GRM after all. Get them out to the track and auto-x. Teach them to control and appreciate their car, and make driving on the street an utterly boring and pedestrian thing. (That's actually what I first thought of when seeing the thread title.)

I'm of the same mindset as Tom on this one (even have the same name! coincidence? I think not!), and just to drive home a few of his points, I bolded the ones I think are the most important.

sparknotes version:

1. If you don't think I'm a good enough driver to be on the road, you shouldn't be merely watching over my shoulder as I endanger the lives of others, you should take away the keys! if I am enough of a safety hazard that you feel the need to monitor me, then I should NOT be driving!

2. I can't really sparknotes this one, but I can add something: say I have a job that I need to get to, and your onboard tracking system/shock collar won't let my car start. My boss may or may not be forgiving if he knows the situation, not to mention how it would look to your employer: "hey, boss, I can't make it to work, the tracking system my parents put on my car disabled the ignition" the boss's reaction will likely use the same mentality as point 1. "If his/her parents saw the need to monitor them when they drive, are they really responsible enough to work at my store/restaurant/shop?"

3. I can't emphasize this enough, if I found a tracking device in my car and was able to solidly determine it was put there by my parents, I would absolutely go through the roof, mainly because of points 1 and 2 but also the sheer lack of trust, and quite frankly, testicular fortitude. If you decide that I need to be monitored after I've been driving for a while, don't be sneaky about it, suck it up, grow a pair, be a good parent and talk to your kid about it. communication is key, the more of it you have, the better, not having it at all can only lead to bad things. I guarantee the response will be better, and it gives you a chance to let them know the device is there, that it IS being monitored, and that consequences will result if you did something you weren't supposed to do, or went somewhere you shouldn't have. like Tom, If you put money towards the car or if you are paying for gas/insurance/maintance, go ahead, monitor it, that's the smart thing to do. but make it known, and for the love of god, if you're going to monitor at all, monitor all the time. from the time your kid gets their learners until the day they are no longer living in the house, or when the car gets signed over to them, if it ever does

I'm fine with monitoring in some circumstances, especially if consistency is used, as well as general good judgement based upon your kid's driving when you were riding with them in the learners permit period. I realize that no kid would do something outright stupid when their parent is riding shotgun, but it is still possible to determine if your kid is going to run over the mailbox and the garbage every other week due to a sheer lack of skill. also, if they paid for the car with their own money, even though it technically has to be titled in your name, I think it should be their decision as to whether or not you get to install the automotive equivalent of a shock collar on their car

I know my post definitely didn't make any friends, but I am in a bit of a poor mood and this topic sort of struck a nerve

Tom Suddard wrote: Ok, I know I'm a kid so I probably won't be listened to, but here's what I think anyway (don't you love the internet?): 1. As mentioned before by others, if you don't trust your kid enough to let them drive around, please don't let them drive. If they can't make good enough decisions to keep out of trouble around town, they have no business operating a two-ton weapon. Please don't put somebody that irresponsible on the road with me. 2. Most of the tracking systems are hit-and-miss (my friends have all kinds of different crap installed in their cars). They're inaccurate, expensive, laggy, etc. I've also seen many of them (albeit improperly installed) disable cars in the student parking lot, too. I can't count how many times I've been under the dash of somebody's car trying to get it started for them. 3. I don't mean to offend anyone, but it doesn't sound like you're too great with technology. You're kids will probably have to help you set it up. If you were told to build your prison, wouldn't you put in a back door? 4. Kids are smart. We'll figure out a way around whatever you put in/on/around our cars. And if we don't figure out how to disable it, we'll fool it. I know a girl that sticks her phone in a bush near the movie theater whenever she goes across the street for dinner/ice cream/ etc. because her parents track it. We're also big fans of car-pooling, because gas is so expensive. 5. I'd hope that you and your children have a good relationship. What will happen to that when they find a tracking device in their car (assuming you haven't told them)? I know you're the parent and your only duty is to keep them safe, not to be their friend. But, if they see how little you trust them, they'll lose trust in you, too. Would you ask advice from someone who was so insecure about the way they raised you that they installed tracking equipment in your car? I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but good luck trying to track your teenager. I think you'll find it's an exercise in futility. One thing- If you're paying for the car, then I don't have an issue with you tracking it. Just make the tracking device known. Not only will this help the kids respect your car, it will also provide an incentive for them to become independent and buy their own cars.

You may want to go have a talk with your insurance company, I know there are a few right now offering discounts if you drive with one of their GPS trackers in your car.

Hell, if you're that worried about it, sign every car in the house up for it! Do as I say, AND as I do!

Which reminds me, I gotta go talk to my agent and see if those things have caveats for auto-x and drag days.

I should have known better than to think I could ask a question and actually get an answer without people thinking they know better than me how to raise my kids. But I actually thought that here of all places that I could. Will anyone actually answer my berkeleying questions without a moral judgement or insulting me or my kids? Who do you think knows my situation better, you or me? I guess I have to offer information that shouldn't be necessary to get a quesiton like this answered.

FOR THE RECORD - They are both straight A students and prodegy musicians (seriously), they are heavily involved in our church, they take a trip every summer to build houses for poor people in Kentucky, they are both mature, responsible kids that respect their parents, but together they are oil and water. They have been driving off road go karts since the age of 5, they built and autocross a 100cc Yamaha sprint kart, they just graduated from this driving school, and also attended their winter driving school. This summer they will take the Mid-Ohio school teen course. They are good kids, and so was I.

But I was dangerous on the road, not because I didn't have the training or the correct upbringing. It was because I had this serious need for speed that over-ruled my rational thinking. I don't think I'm the only one that suffered from this either. Trust is earned. Just because I trust my kids in every other way doesn't mean I'm going to just assume that I can trust them with a vehicle when I'm not there, a vehicle that can KILL them. Any one of you that thinks you can IMO is foolish.

I DO own the car that they will be driving, and I also pay the insurance on that vehicle. Insurance for two good 16 year olds is high enough. If one of them gets a ticket or gets in an accident, my insurance will sky rocket.

I also mentioned previously that while both of my kids are great, they don't get along all that well. They don't fight in the car, but do fight at home. So am I supposed to assume that they won't fight in the car when I'm not there, creating a major distraction for the one whos driving? Could I forgive myself if I did and they ended up dead? I'm not going to take that chance.

It's so easy for people on the internet to offer these simple and often stupid solutions to someone they don't even know. I shouldn't have to give a complete history of my family to get an answer to a simple question. All I wanted was some feeback on tracking devices, why do you feel a need to give me parenting advice instead? Sorry to those of you who didn't particpate in any of this, I'm not talking to you. But please keep your responses to information about tracking devices, or don't post at all, k?

Oh, and Tommy, I'm not too good with technology? I'm a mechanical engineer and amongst other things design automatic electronic controls for HVAC systems. I also run a fairly technical testing lab. I just don't happen to have experience with using cell phones for tracking purposes, because I use my cell phone for, you know, calling people. So since you obviously pegged me wrong, how much do you really think you know about raising MY kids? Rant off.

Pssssst... rant boy. Your question was answered at least twice. Upgrade your crappy phone for a new one, buy a dedicated logger for $100, hire a detective, borrow the neighbor's car.... hell, you can just get a trenchcoat and follow him yourself... all of these are presented above.

What more do you need?

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: hell, you can just get a trenchcoat and follow him yourself...

I quite like this "old school" approach, myself. Bust a tail-light and keep your distance. After a while they'll probably cotton onto the tail, and that ought to spook them into driving sensibly for a while at least.

< / lighthearted humor > (just in case)

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Pssssst... rant boy. Your question was answered at least twice. Upgrade your crappy phone for a new one, buy a dedicated logger for $100, hire a detective, borrow the neighbor's car.... hell, you can just get a trenchcoat and follow him yourself... all of these are presented above. What more do you need?

I never said I didn't get an answer. There are many solutions out there, and I was looking for more opinions from people who have actually used them. Many questions here are for the same reason. Now you, go away, as I'm not in a very good mood right now.

bravenrace wrote: I never said I didn't get an answer. There are many solutions out there, and I was looking for more opinions from people who have actually used them. Many questions here are for the same reason. Now you, go away, as I'm not in a very good mood right now.

Maybe you are grumpy because you were out doing cloak -n- dagger work following the boy around all night? I hope he isn't working for the russians.

Lighten up Francis. Just a little levity to start off the morning...

OK, so you've got driving aged kids. You've been parenting now for what, 15 years? 17 years?

This is certainly not the first time inexperienced people offered their off-track moral advice to your for your parenting.

If it helps, I agree with you. Stick to your guns, but calm down and don't shoot yourself in the foot.

bravenrace wrote: I should have known better than to think I could ask a question and actually get an answer without people thinking they know better than me how to raise my kids.

here is the thing: you are kinda asking how to raise your kids by asking how best to track their whereabouts when they're not with you.

But I actually thought that here of all places that I could. Will anyone actually answer my berkeleying questions without a moral judgement or insulting me or my kids?

actually, it is you insulting the intelligence of your kids, "you're 16 now, here is a car to go to and from wherever you need to go, but i don't trust you to not be doing something you're not supposed to, or going somewhere you aren't supposed to be"

if you don't think you can trust them to be out of your sight, you're either an overprotective helicopter parent or you have some really messed up kids.

from this:

FOR THE RECORD - They are both straight A students and prodegy musicians (seriously), they are heavily involved in our church, they take a trip every summer to build houses for poor people in Kentucky, they are both mature, responsible kids that respect their parents, but together they are oil and water.

sounds like the former rather than the latter. all siblings will fight now and again, they'll think they hate each other. they'll grow out of it.

They have been driving off road go karts since the age of 5, they built and autocross a 100cc Yamaha sprint kart, they just graduated from this driving school, and also attended their winter driving school. This summer they will take the Mid-Ohio school teen course. They are good kids, and so was I.

sounds like you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

But I was dangerous on the road, not because I didn't have the training or the correct upbringing. It was because I had this serious need for speed that over-ruled my rational thinking. I don't think I'm the only one that suffered from this either. Trust is earned. Just because I trust my kids in every other way doesn't mean I'm going to just assume that I can trust them with a vehicle when I'm not there, a vehicle that can KILL them. Any one of you that thinks you can IMO is foolish.

so was i, thats why i had an 80's land barge and slow pickup trucks until i was nearly out of college. the more a car sounds like its ready to come apart at 95mph and the longer it takes to get there, the less likely they are to do 105.

I DO own the car that they will be driving, and I also pay the insurance on that vehicle. Insurance for two good 16 year olds is high enough. If one of them gets a ticket or gets in an accident, my insurance will sky rocket.

good, this means you can also take the car away if that happens, too. threat of death if they get a ticket is also acceptable in this situation as well.

I also mentioned previously that while both of my kids are great, they don't get along all that well. They don't fight in the car, but do fight at home. So am I supposed to assume that they won't fight in the car when I'm not there, creating a major distraction for the one whos driving? Could I forgive myself if I did and they ended up dead? I'm not going to take that chance.

if you don't trust them driving the car, don't let them drive the car.

It's so easy for people on the internet to offer these simple and often stupid solutions to someone they don't even know. I shouldn't have to give a complete history of my family to get an answer to a simple question. All I wanted was some feeback on tracking devices, why do you feel a need to give me parenting advice instead? Sorry to those of you who didn't particpate in any of this, I'm not talking to you. But please keep your responses to information about tracking devices, or don't post at all, k?

sometimes it takes a bit of information to get the information you are looking for.

bravenrace wrote: Now you, go away, as I'm not in a very good mood right now.

This made me LOL. I imagined a smiley at the end, but that might be my optimistic nature.

It's a salad bar full of advice; take what you like and leave the rest for the next guy.

As for me, I'm not sure what path I'll take with my kids. There's certainly an argument to be made for some independent observation, but in the end it is an issue of trust. Parents will make their own best choices based on their unique situations. A "one size fits all" solution is unrealistic. (and no, I have no direct experience with any of the trackers, but I've seen them on TV.)

I've got a 23 year old, and a 20 year old (plus some younger ones).

When I started parenting, there was no internet. Most people did not have cell phones, tracking devices were illegal stuff of spy movies, and OnStar was something Ronald Reagan advocated for strategic missile defense.

A lot has changed.

Very few people understand the shifting moral landscape of parenting in a digital age.

All I can tell you is you gotta keep up the fight, and the responsibility for parenting your kids is YOUR responsibility, not the responsibility of the critics.

So, focus on your family and your job as a parent, and don't pay attention to the naysayers.

Bravenrace -

Judging by your post up above, you're taking the right approach, and honestly you've taken the steps that I'm planning on taking with my kids (they're too young right now). Making sure they really know car control is critical, but I think understanding what they're doing in a car when you're not in it is also important.

I'm not sure what the technology will be like in 11 years when my oldest starts driving, but my plan is to install the monitoring software in the car, tell them why I'm doing it (I was once a teenager), and tell them how I'll be using it. For most kids, at 16 you really have no comprehension of what could go wrong on the road. I was 16, I knew it all, and I now realize just how little I actually knew. I'm sure I'll look back when I'm 60 and say the same thing about myself at my current age.

My senior year of HS, I had a classmate who was killed when she was speeding home to beat a curfew. I'm sure her parents have never forgiven themselves, and never will. My parents were very fair and reasonable with me, and I'm just trying to do the same with my kids.

In reply to dj06482:

Thanks for the vote of confidence. You too, SVrex. And Tom, you are absolutely right. But these people are talking about my kids, and that makes it personal. I don't mind people questioning me, but it really rips me when they think they know better than me what is right for me and my family. I didn't ask for advice on how to raise my kids, I asked for reviews and recommendations on recording devices, plain and simple.
Maybe if they had experienced teen death in their family they'd think differently, idunno.

Did you expect no opinions from this crowd??

If you use something cell phone based, they will just ditch their cell phone when they are in the mood to be dumb.

If I were doing this, I'd do a permanent install in the car and tell them about it. If nothing else, it gives them a go-to excuse when their idiot friends are egging them on. "Nah man, I can't race - my shiny happy person dad put a berkeleying tracker on the car and will know I was speeding."

SVreX wrote: Did you expect no opinions from this crowd??

I expected opinions on the devices, not on my ability (or lack of) to raise my kids. Silly me.

In reply to DILYSI Dave:

Thanks Dave.

ok, given everything that was said, I do feel the need to apologize for the way I worded my post, as I have a feeling it was part of the reason you blew up bravenrace. I didn't notice the bit about your friend loosing both her kids to a speeder, that would certainly sway your opinion and now I understand where you are coming from. however, many of my points still stand.

this is just a guess based upon my experiences so take it with a grain of salt, but right now they might as well have their own satilite, and regardless of whether or not they know about it, that will affect their actions. depending on how long they are driving a car that you own/pay for gas/pay insurance on, either it will develop into a habit of driving in a sane/normal/sensible manner (likely, given your description of your kids), or they will make use of their newfound freedom/lack of monitoring (not quite so likely unless they have a similar mindset to me). Where am I coming from with this? I can't nail that down for certain but I can give an example of myself doing something similar. When I'm driving and am following an obnoxiously slow car, I will pass them at the first opportunity unless I need the lane I am in and won't be able to get back over safely in time to make my turn. When I pass them, usually I drop down one or two gears, maybe three, to get the revs up and then just let it eat, until I am at the speed limit +5mph, either to make up lost time, to drive home the point that "45 doesn't mean 35 and it sure doesn't mean 25, it means 45", or just because I now have the ability to do that, at this point I really don't know which it is for me. my point is, having freedom/ability generally inspires the use of that freedom/ability, sometimes good, sometimes bad.

as for actual product advice, given the point that Tom made about them being finicky and unreliable, I HIGHLY reccomend you not get a system that ties into the ignition or has the ability to disable the car, that's just asking for problems even if you never use the disable feature yourself. Any complication in a system is an added failure point. getting a tracking device that ties into the ignition and can disable the car at will is adding a complication to the system, and that's just based on the wiring, it doesn't even take into account the hardware/software of the tracking device itself. plus, if the systems work anything like a TPMS sensor in the way they send/receive signals, then some malicious prick theoretically could hack the signal and disable a car at will, either just to be funny/irritating, or for more sinister reasons. A tracking device that only gets power from the car's battery (or the alternator or the ignition or something so that it isn't a parasitic drain on the battery), that can only see what the car is doing (like engine RPM/gear selection/speed/location/lateral and longitudinal acceleration if you can find one that will do that) but can't actually affect it in any way, would be the way to go I think, just make sure they know it's being monitored. bonus, if they end up with a sporty car and they autocross it, you have a good source of telemetry to use as a tuning/learning/teaching tool

I've got 3 kids, thankfully all out of the house now.

They moaned and they whined about how strict we were and how "all the other kids were doing it" and we should trust them. But we stuck to our guns.

Since they moved out of the house and have been on their own and have seen how some of their friends turned out plus how worthless many of the people are that they work with - ALL 3 HAVE COME UP TO US AND THANKED US .

My son just evicted his best friend from high school because he realized the friend will never make anything of himself and was dragging my son down. They were roomies and my son said he wanted to believe in his friend and my son really thought he would change, but he's come to realize some people just didn't have the "proper upbringing". His words.

The standard comment, and I don't mean just to us, when they begin telling stories about how bad a person is, is the phrase "they must not have had parents that cared"

That makes all the grief we took worthwhile.

Parents know more than their kids. They get to look thru the telescope from the other end and have seen the consequences for kids actions.

For that matter older people have more experience than you 30 somethings and can see where you're headed. They've been there and seen that many things that sound cool, don't really turn out all right downline.

carguy123 wrote: Parents know more than their kids. They get to look thru the telescope from the other end and have seen the consequences for kids actions. For that matter older people have more experience than you 30 somethings and can see where you're headed. They've been there and seen that many things that sound cool, don't really turn out all right downline.

After reading that last paragraph, I did a quick survey just for kicks. The average age of people making negative comments in this thread is 24. The average for positive comments is 41. I wonder why...

I still agree with the kids on one point: Tell your kids the tracking device is in the car and that you'll be monitoring it. They might not like the rules, but odds are good that in spite of any kvetching they do about it, they'll respect you more for being up front about it. It will also prepare them for corporate life, where everything is tracked, measured, indexed and numbered.

Knowing you're watching might also be the factor that keeps them from doing something stupid. That's worth any kvetching and irritation on their end ten times over.

I think DILYSI Dave nailed it: Do a permanent install on the car, and tell them. By and large I was a good kid, and I can still remember feeling relief when my parents would shoot down something "everyone" was doing that I wasn't totally comfortable doing, but that I felt I had to ask them for permission to do. I've seen that same relief on my own kids' faces.

So yeah, install it, tell them you did... heck, tell their friends you did, and everyone has a convenient excuse for why they have to exercise good judgement when it's otherwise unpopular. That's hard enough to do as an adult (I know I get tired of it, but that's what I'm here for, not to win any popularity contests), nearly impossible to do as a kid without help.

Margie

No matter what you do to try and track your kids they will outsmart you, period. If they want to go racing around and drive like idiots they will do it in a friends car. If they don't want you knowing where they are they will do as others have mentioned and leave phones or the car in one location while making their way to their actual destination. That is just a fact of life. Hell if my parents had tried this on either of my cars I can tell you now their efforts would have failed.

The example previously mentioned of the kids getting hit by another car outside their own house just goes to show you will NOT be able to control the fate of your children on the road or out in the world in general. E36 M3 happens no matter what. All you can do is prepare your children as best you can to be responsible and for them to use their brains. The sad fact is no matter how much you prepare your kids there will be a percentage of teenagers that will die and there is nothing at all you can do about it unless you plan on wrapping them in bubble wrap and keeping them in a closet until they turn 20, even then you will stand the chance of them dying in some fashion other than old age. I had friends in high school that died in car wrecks, some it was because of their own idiotic driving and others it was because of the driving of others.

You also have to be prepared that doing something of this caliber is going to cause quite a bit of friction between your kids and yourself. In fact it may back fire on you and cause them to be more reckless considering you are showing them (in their eyes) that you do not trust them. When I was a teenager I trusted my father completely. I trusted in the fact that if I screwed up in the car he would take an axe to my car and then my ass would be grass.