Tuna is soon to be jobless

John Brown wrote:

I loved what the reason for termination was: "Employee was not a perfect fit for our organization." I trained my replacement, he happened to be the guy who sold my former boss a motorcycle...

He dumped you for a guy that sold him ONE motorcycle? Does he hae any idea how much crap you could have sold him?

John Brown wrote: I got a call back for one of my dream jobs today, Endurance Test Driver for Chrysler Proving which is about 30 miles from my house. Pay is good but it is a temporary position so no benefits initially. One positive is that it gets a foot in the door.

Good Luck, that sounds like a great job. Offer to test the cup holders for no extra charge. How could they refuse two testers for the price of one.

MitchellC wrote: Employees that interact directly with customers are probably the most significant contributors to the company's reputation. Any company that doesn't realize this is doomed sooner or later.

yep, and I want to add that any company that treats its employees like a liability rather than an asset is doomed into mediocrity - there is no single associate who is not fully capable of COSTING a company a sale, but the opposite is also true - so KEEP US HAPPY YOU DOLTS

WOW!!

Two and change months later, I have a job offer. Not to bad. I actually have a job still, too. So how do I go about negotiating their offer (about 4.8% higher than I make now)? Does anyone have actual evidence or skill?

Does new job boss know that old job might be going away?

Congrats.

paanta wrote: Does new job boss know that old job might be going away?

Unfortunately, yes. They do know that the layoff is over, though. Telling them is the only honest way to answer the "why are you leaving your present job" question.

81gtv6 wrote: Congrats.

Thanks!

Last job offer I recieved (for the current job), I knew I was going to take it...but I still asked for a token increase over the offer (I only asked for 1%) and they gladly accepted it.

I just did that out of principle. Almost never accept the first offer...right?

tuna55 wrote: WOW!! Two and change months later, I have a job offer. Not to bad. I actually have a job still, too. So how do I go about negotiating their offer (about 4.8% higher than I make now)? Does anyone have actual evidence or skill?

Is the new job a jump up? Or basically the same position with a different company? How are their benefits? What is the job like? Will you supervise folks? Are the roles and responsibilities any different? What is the climate like at the new place? How are they at progressing you along? Do you want to be progressed along?

A 4.8% jump is fairly weak to be honest. Many have done that in performance reviews. I'd aim for 10-15% more than you are currently making, as starting point.

The big thing you have to remember is that generally everyone leaves some money on the table when getting a new job. They have taken the time to extend you an offer and that means they really like you. Even in this down economy recruiting good people is very tough and offers are extended rarely. You must use this to your advantage.

Never accept the first offer and never tell them a number. Always say, something like, I think the salary your offering is generous but not exactly fitting with the skills and experience I bring to the table.. They will then ask you what you feel is appropriate... DON'T TELL THEM A NUMBER.

tuna55 wrote:

paanta wrote: Does new job boss know that old job might be going away?

Unfortunately, yes. They do know that the layoff is over, though. Telling them is the only honest way to answer the "why are you leaving your present job" question.

Should have said better opportunities.... Basically you aren't lying

ignorant wrote:

tuna55 wrote: WOW!! Two and change months later, I have a job offer. Not to bad. I actually have a job still, too. So how do I go about negotiating their offer (about 4.8% higher than I make now)? Does anyone have actual evidence or skill?

Is the new job a jump up? Or basically the same position with a different company? How are their benefits? What is the job like? Will you supervise folks? Are the roles and responsibilities any different? What is the climate like at the new place? How are they at progressing you along? Do you want to be progressed along? A 4.8% jump is fairly weak to be honest. Many have done that in performance reviews. I'd aim for 10-15% more than you are currently making, as starting point. The big thing you have to remember is that generally everyone leaves some money on the table when getting a new job. They have taken the time to extend you an offer and that means they really like you. Even in this down economy recruiting good people is very tough and offers are extended rarely. You must use this to your advantage. Never accept the first offer and never tell them a number. Always say, something like, I think the salary your offering is generous but not exactly fitting with the skills and experience I bring to the table.. They will then ask you what you feel is appropriate... DON'T TELL THEM A NUMBER.

Thanks for the advice, iggy. I think I will do just that, except your advice doesn't jive with most that I have heard about mentioning a number at this stage. I have heard mentioning a range above where you'd be comfortable (so, in completely made up numbers, tell them 20-25K if I really want 18K and they only offered 15K) but I understand your angle too.

I also haven;t decided what to do for a response. They E-mailed and said it was to be considered verbal. Once I had confirmed, they would mail an official letter. Basically, that says to me "Email back because we Emailed and we expect this email thing to be a negotiation", but may have to ask the wife to take the edge off of my E-mail because I tend to be a little brash in writing (nobody here is surprised).

The job is far better in terms of stability, product, market, market share, company outlook, benefit costs (haven't run the numbers officially yet).

I checked with my current boss. I am four-five months late on my increase. He put a 6% in for me but the chief engineer never signs any these days. I'd like to at least match that, as that's obviously where he thinks I can be at the existing job. 10% would be great, but I don't want to get greedy, either, since it is a much better opportunity (room for moving around both laterally and up, better work environment, not getting laid off, etc) but I don't want to sell myself short if this is to last a while.

Thanks for opining, I am unsure as of yet what to do with regards to my counter letter, but it's nice to have some ideas.

The advice I got about not mentioning a number comes from conversations with a few execs. Basically, everyone leaves money on the table when negotiating.

For example, you say you want 10k more then they say OK... Once you get that you can't really go back to them for more or you'll never know that they were authorized to pay up to 23k more..

If you tell them a range, they'll pick the low end of it right off or just below. Again then you've given them the power cause they have basically met your demands...

Good luck, sounds like a good move. Sometimes salary isn't everything, thats why I asked about the company, market, environment, etc...

Whomever mentions money first loses.

Whomever uses the word whomever is a loser...that sounds really dumb. Is it supposed to be who ever? What ever?

Good job on getting a new job Tuna and good luck with the negotiations.

The health care is mildly cheaper, I would save about $500 per year in summation. That took two hours to figure. It probably wasn't worth the investigation time.

Here is my proposed counter letter. Do I E-mail it or call it in?

I want to first thank you for the offer you sent to me on Friday. I am very interested in (Company name) and the engineering position in the (group name) group. I do agree that I will be able to make a substantial positive impact through your (group name) team. After carefully reviewing your proposal, I have the following thoughts.

Regarding vacation days, I did not see a specific number attached to the literature. My current supervisor allows me ten base vacation days plus a large number of convenience days to handle family and household matters. I usually end up taking between 15-20 total throughout the year. How does the (company name) policy compare in this regard?

On your suggested base salary, I saw a discrepancy, albeit a small one, between where I would expect an employee of my caliber to be as compared to your offer of $25,000 (fake number). I believe that the quality and breadth of skills that I was selected for are worth moderately more than that. From my research, as well as reviewing my current salary and annual review documentation, I would be more excited about an offer in the (fake number plus 7K) range. I did not see a bonus plan in the (company name) documentation you sent. (current company name) based my current salary on a (now defunct) bonus plan, which is why my base salary looks low in comparison.

Start date was not mentioned. I would expect that (company name) would be satisfied with a two week lead time once the offer was finalized. My current employer would certainly appreciate the courtesy. The benefits package was completely satisfactory. The (company name) standard benefits are quite generous. I only want to ask about how often one can switch between the offered plans, and when in the year that change can take place. For instance, will I be able to switch between plans on January 1 2011, or will I be required to wait until my one year anniversary?

I did not see a policy regarding performance reviews. I would suspect that an organization such as yours would place an emphasis on annual reviews, but I want to clarify. Perhaps it would be prudent for a new employee such as myself to request a review at the six month mark rather than waiting a year such that I could evaluate my progress and standing within this new situation.

I want to again thank you for this offer. (company name)as been quite generous with regards to how much time the hiring process takes, and I appreciate that. I feel that we are very close in our requests, and I see no reason why we cannot quickly come to very mutually beneficial terms. I am delighted to hear that both (mngr 1) and (mngr 2) wanted to hire me. That situation gives me even further confidence regarding how much I can add to your team.

I think call it in, and I also am beginning to think Iggy is right, I shouldn't mention a specific number...

tuna55 wrote: I also am beginning to think Iggy is right

don't start that.. 93gsxturbo's head might explode.

ignorant wrote:

tuna55 wrote: I also am beginning to think Iggy is right

don't start that.. 93gsxturbo's head might explode.

Heck, MY head is going to explode...

Glad to hear things are working out! just to play that other little voice in the back of your head, there is something to be said for working somewhere that youre familiar with...knowing the companies culture, the mgt, the "way we do it 'round here" etc etc. Not saying I think you need to reconsider anything, Im just saying thats something I take into consideration when decisions like this come up...just part of the pros and cons list. It is really good to hear that you have options!

I called, ended up having to give a range, gave them 5K higher than they told me per year. They came back and said no, but how about a 5K signing bonus? I guess that will do...

My strategy is to take an offered signing bonus and try to turn it into base salary because raises are usually doled out as a percentage. Starting a little higher in base salary can add up over the years assuming you get the same percentage increase. But, if that doesn't work, a signing bonus is good compared to no signing bonus.

OK, get this. I give notice, about 2 1/2 weeks. I am running an errand the next day before I get in. I get a call from my boss. "You in the building yet? Good. Get everything taken care of before you get in, they're walking you out and it's stupid. They weren't going to pay you, but I told them that was bullE36 M3.

I call the IT guy and tell him to go grab his stuff that I borrowed from my cube before it gets ransacked.

I get in, everything is gone. And now? Now, I have two weeks of paid vacation. Weird, eh? I guess it was a good time to leave.

tuna55 wrote: OK, get this. I give notice, about 2 1/2 weeks. I am running an errand the next day before I get in. I get a call from my boss. "You in the building yet? Good. Get everything taken care of before you get in, they're walking you out and it's stupid. They weren't going to pay you, but I told them that was bullE36 M3. I call the IT guy and tell him to go grab his stuff that I borrowed from my cube before it gets ransacked. I get in, everything is gone. And now? Now, I have two weeks of paid vacation. Weird, eh? I guess it was a good time to leave.

I've heard that of that happening if you are going to a competitor and they find out..

ignorant wrote:

tuna55 wrote: OK, get this. I give notice, about 2 1/2 weeks. I am running an errand the next day before I get in. I get a call from my boss. "You in the building yet? Good. Get everything taken care of before you get in, they're walking you out and it's stupid. They weren't going to pay you, but I told them that was bullE36 M3. I call the IT guy and tell him to go grab his stuff that I borrowed from my cube before it gets ransacked. I get in, everything is gone. And now? Now, I have two weeks of paid vacation. Weird, eh? I guess it was a good time to leave.

I've heard that of that happening if you are going to a competitor and they find out..

Me too, but this wasn't a competitor. Not even close.

Enjoy your vacation! This is pretty common these days - even not going to a competitor there's too much you can screw up for them once they know the fear of being fired is gone. Mine databases for your personal gain, inject virii into the computer system to satisfy a grudge, sell information to competitors, tick off customers/suppliers, etc., etc.