UAW strikes again.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081212/ap_on_go_co/congress_autos

Ok maybe strike is not the right word to use when talking about a union.

There goes the stock market... again.

World markets have been tanking already! Should be a fun day.

I think no matter what the union's decided, the Republicans would not have allowed the bill to pass.

That's not how I read it. I think the Repubs wanted the bail out under their regime so they could use it as propaganda if it worked and also to buy a few votes.

In reply to Rangeball:

^ Republicans do not want any of the Big 3 to fail. But they also realize how much burden UAW contracts force on the companies. A Republican-supported "bailout" happens when/if the UAW concedes and agrees to re-negotiates to a lower, more amenable wage scale.

The UAW is balking because it wants bailout money to maintain union influence, not to assist in restructuring an industry (and itself) that is in a death-spiral.

A true bankruptcy would force the courts to review all aspects of a company, including erasing and negotiating labor contracts from the ground up. That wouldn't be a bad thing, except for the ripple effect that could cause more economic damage to the tangential, suppliers who work with/for the Big 3.

The UAW most likely is stalling until O and company assume the reigns, hoping the Dems (who are beholding to the unions) will cave to their demands. If that happens, it's another case of throwing good money after bad.

No one wins in the long-term.

Why help those that refuse to help themselves. IMNSHO YMMV

As one senator said the other day, it all smells like a UAW payback for getting dems elected. And don't be fooled, most of the money wil end up going to the UAW. The reason none of them want to go chapter 11 is that the people that want the money will get cut out of the picture.

Chapter 11 exists for the very reason these companies need it. You're being sold a bill of goods if you really believe this bailout will do anything other than go to the union and executives. It will change nothing and they still will have to go through the same issues in a few months. Not only that, the Car Czar will no oversee them and in effect give government control over the car companies. A bad bad precedent.

The danger with that is huge and I don't think people recoginize it. Governments are the most poorly run companies on earth, why would you want them anywhere near something important!

racerdave600 wrote: Chapter 11 exists for the very reason these companies need it.

Agreed, but that would be a death nell.

For once, I agree with the worthless media talking heads.

Would you buy a new car from a company that has claimed bankruptcy? Granted, if you really understand what happens with bankruptcy, it might not affect your decision. Most of the public, however, would run away quickly.

-Rob

People fly in bankrupt airlines.

People were buying American cars when they were undeniable crap because they were "American". Don't you think these "patriots" would not have a much of a problem with buying a car from a bankrupt car company since it is a very definite act of "helping America"? (as apposed to previously, when it was actually hurting American, in the long run at least)

rob_lewis wrote: Would you buy a new car from a company that has claimed bankruptcy? Granted, if you really understand what happens with bankruptcy, it might not affect your decision. Most of the public, however, would run away quickly.

I heard an amusing idea on NPR, that I thought was a bit goofy at the time, but now am more amenable to. I think it was a representative of one of the Big 3 who said, they'd be amenable to a deal where they were allowed to file bankruptcy, but not actually call it "bankruptcy". Essentially the same thing but with a feel-good non-threatening name that wouldn't drive customers away.

Oh man you guys are in trouble now...this is not the time for those companies to fail...

They could file for "Chapter 11 Help a Brotha Out".

And speaking of buying an American car as patriotic duty... I'm still currently a coop student working in the auto industry, and the last company I was with I worked alongside union workers.

A handful of them were decent, hard working people, who just wanted protection from abusive employers, the rest were adult sized children who were useless examples of human beings when let loose without supervision.

I always held my tongue when I was around them, because, unfortunately, if I offended the sensibilities of one, they could file a grievance, (which is a fancy way of saying, "you hurt my feelings and I'm telling on you"). So one thing that would always bother me was people giving me E36 M3 for driving a Camry, (built in the US by the way, but nevermind that). The people that gave me a hard time, are the same ones who stopped whatever it was they were doing, to go on break, when it was time to go on break. Reminded me of Pavlov's dog, (I think that's the right one).

I didn't get official breaks, just lunch. And I wouldn't just drop every thing and go, I'd finish whatever it was I was doing, then leave. It just amazes me that people buy American cars out of patriotic duty, but when it comes to working for an American company, no one considers it their patriotic duty to do the best job they can.

And sorta unrelated to the topic of patriotism, but goes back to being grown up children. At that company, one day I walked into a bathroom that was on the manufacturing floor, and there were signs posted everywhere that said something to the effect of "RECENTLY WE HAVE BEEN FINDING FECES SMEARED ON THE WALLS AND PAPER TOWELS IN THE URINALS. IF THIS DOES NOT STOP, THE BATHROOMS WILL BE CHAINED SHUT". I was so proud to work amongst those overpaid union workers that day.

Wait. Wait. Wait...

"Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., called the bill's collapse "a loss for the country," adding: "I dread looking at Wall Street tomorrow. It's not going to be a pleasant sight.""

Later in the article... "Reid also voted "no" for procedural reasons."

WTF is going on here? I sort of understand the "procedural reasons" stuff, but...

In other news, it appears the Republicans might have learned a little something from the slaughter in Nov.

I haven't been able to keep up with the TV news today but I did get a chance to read a newspaper article about yesterday's bailout failure. It seems the Republicans requested, as part of any possible bailout package, that the UAW take an across the board paycut to bring the US automakers in line with what the non unionized plants pay their workers and they flat said 'nope'.

There's the UAW's stance as it has been all along: we'd rather have 100% of nothing than 70% of existing pay.

Add to that the automakers' insistence on building gashogs when there is a history of gas price increases and signs that a big 'un was on the way and these entities have created their perfect storm.

I like what's happening; the dinosaurs will get forced out and the remnants of the US car industry might become something adaptable and flexible that we can once again be proud of.

All those suddenly unemployed UAW workers will have to apply for too few jobs at the non union plants and they'll get a taste of what people who really want to work are capable of.

Osterizer wrote: "Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., called the bill's collapse "a loss for the country," adding: "I dread looking at Wall Street tomorrow. It's not going to be a pleasant sight.""

Apparently Wall Street doesn't care...

rob_lewis wrote:

racerdave600 wrote: Chapter 11 exists for the very reason these companies need it.

Agreed, but that would be a death nell. For once, I agree with the worthless media talking heads. Would you buy a new car from a company that has claimed bankruptcy? Granted, if you really understand what happens with bankruptcy, it might not affect your decision. Most of the public, however, would run away quickly. -Rob

From a friend that owns a couple of GM dealerships, he's worried that if they get the bailout the backlash will be worse than if they filed. He's worried that no one will come in at all as a way to retaliate. He has a good point. People buy from bankrupt companies all the time, and part of the Republican stance has been to warranty the cars through the govt. should it come to that. There is no reason at all not to do chapter 11 at this point other than to appease the UAW and upper management.

Aircooled wrote…“Apparently Wall Street doesn't care”

I made the same observation but drew a slightly different conclusion…Wall Street doesn’t care because it’s confident this is pure posturing and a very generous bail-out is a near certainty.

Racerdave 600 wrote…”if they get the bailout the backlash will be worse than if they filed”

I’m one of those people…I bought a new Ford Explorer a few years ago. It has been a very good vehicle and I’d happily buy another one so long as there’s no bail-out or if there is a bail-out, the UAW would have to be effectively wiped out…If I’m saddled with giving these thugs extortion money, the probability of my ever, ever buying merican’ again is precisely zero.

I'm obviously not a financial expert...but on the face of things it would seem the UAW has shot itself in the foot. At least from a PR stand point.