Uganda

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelangelo-signorile/arizona-and-uganda-how-th_b_4853885.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/25/obama-the-family-and-uganda-s-anti-gay-christian-mafia.html

Basically, its people hiding behind their version of religious values (I won't point them to a specific religion since they are so far from any official teachings of established religions that they are on their own) and taking advantage of people who are looking for solutions to their problems wherever they can get them.

Think you could find any more biased reporting? Wow.

I have to do all the work for you? Go search Google News for Uganda and Coalition for Family Values:

http://www.voanews.com/content/us-group-urges-nations-to-block-efforts-to-end-discrimination-against-gays/1856965.html

Or Scott Lively:

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/tag/scott-lively

Seriously, plenty of verifiable info available from multiple sources about who helped write the bill and who helped fan some of the flames of discontent leading to the bill.

I don't like to see people being hurt, especially for being different. No matter who they target.

aircooled wrote:

ronholm wrote: ...All these laws need to say... Which they should... Anyone has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason...

I see the point, and on the surface I agree. After all it is a private shop, they can do as they wish. Of course, it gets a bit weird when you start excluding Jews etc. There is the whole "we reserve the right to refuse to serve" thing. I wonder how far that goes, and if it is even legal? Obviously, if the basis for not serving is race, that runs into civil rights issues. What basis can you refuse service? Because they are an a-hole?

Anyone private body can do that, I guess. But when the State starts passing laws protecting that behavior it quickly gets un-Constitutional.

In reply to turboswede:

No. You don't have to do my work for me.

You completely missed my point.

I did my own homework. Unlike most people in this thread.

If the only thing we want to believe is what we want to believe, it's pretty easy to be deceived. Just read the first article that titillates us.

I am not a mushroom. I get no benefit from being kept in the dark and being fed E36 M3.

"No shoes,no shirt,no service"

While I personally agree that refusing service to anyone based on race or sexual preference is generally abhorrent, what about the couple with the photography business in New Mexico that was sued for refusing to provide their services to a lesbian wedding? I mean, the govt is essentially telling them that they are required to attend and provide services to a ceremony that violates their deeply held religious beliefs. Who is oppressed in that scenario?

Point is, these are more complex issues than some of the high-horses of some people will allow.

The problem isn't so much the hatred, it's the political sanctioning of the hatred and the use of political power to do something with it.
Read a history of Eastern Europe prior to WWII and you realize that there was significant hatred of Jews and homosexuals and gypsies. It was when the government got involved with making the hatred a policy that things got bad.
I do have an issue with personal bigotry, but whatever, hate when you want to hate as long as you're not teaching your children to hate. But I have a real significant problem with instutionalized bigotry.

I really, really wish we had a multi-quote button on this forum.

z31maniac wrote: I really, really wish we had a multi-quote button on this forum.

You just have to

No sir. I'm 'murican, I need everything laid out for me so I don't have to think.

Swine!

Datsun1500 wrote: The ancient Greeks believed in many gods, sun god, water god, etc. it was the way they explained what was unknown to them, at that time. It seems foolish now, but I bet if you told them then that there were no gods, they'd have the same arguments the pro religious posts in this thread have. Isn't organized religion the way to explain what is unknown to us, at this time? How is it different? Do I think you should refuse service to someone because of who they have sex with? Not at all. Do I think most of us care or need to know who you have sex with? Not at all.

I hesitate to get involved with this discussion because you guys are doing such a good job without me, but...

The ancient Greek analogy is almost word for word, the one I've been using for probably 30 years. I've never heard anybody else put it that way.

People ALWAYS refer to being gay as sexual orientation, and talk about who they're having sex with, much like you did. This is not a sex discussion, and being gay has nothing to do with having sex. I find it odd that most people bring that into the discussion.

In reply to Datsun1500:

To clarify...

I have made no pro religious posts in this thread

My posts have been anti religious bigotry.

SVreX wrote: In reply to Datsun1500: To clarify... I have made no pro religious posts in this thread My posts have been anti religious bigotry.

I agree with you, and I think the governor of Arizona appears to have vetoed the bill in the interest of anti religious bigotry.

turboswede wrote: In reply to PHeller: Very true. Something about being the "big bully" in the world might have something to do with that. :/

The sad truth here is that we earned that reputation from spreading and imposing our beliefs upon other sovereign nations(which is exactly what this thread is proving). Uganda surely isn't the first place this has happened, it won't be the last, nor will it matter what we think about it. Not everyone shares our belief structure, nor do they comprehend it.
While I believe what has happened is ethicly wrong, I don't believe in imposing my personal beliefs/morals/ethics upon other cultures......as that would be completely against what values america was founded upon.

I now patiently await someone here to get their knickers in a wad and resort to calling me derogatory slurs for this post.......despite the fact I believe in the equality issue that is being discussed.

In reply to yamaha:

My take-away from this thread is that there are a lot of people who want to assign blame to certain entities. Why is it not possible that Uganda's multi-tribal culture has had an anti-gay attitude that existed centuries before interlopers arrived on the scene?

I won't even pretend to know that answer and refuse join everyone else in diving into a very shallow knowledge pool.

In reply to yamaha:

I didn't really see it as bullying as much as a bribe. If they want our aid they should have to abide by our rules.

In reply to yamaha:

Seeing as Godwin's law was invoked pages ago.

That line of thinking is how the holocaust/WW2 went down the way it did.

"Whatever, that crazy E36 M3 is happening half a world away..."

In reply to Wally:

Hence the double edged sword, our nation legitimately attempts to better some others, but at the same time, our largest exports are our ideals, customs, and beliefs, which happens to be the same very reason our nation was founded. The British pushed their morals, ideals, and agenda upon us, we disagreed with that occurring. That ladies and gentleman is why we are no longer a commonwealth of the British empire. While we believe in basic human rights here, at the same time, we have lost the respect for other cultures and ways of life.
Perhaps it is part of my generation(and surely several before it) being taught our whole lives with how we are all equals, regardless of race, religion, preferences, etc......so we legitimately believe that everyone else in the world should share that viewpoint so we are unprepared or outraged by things like this.

My closing argument is more of a question, where did we lose our way from the lessons learned that made us a great nation to begin with? Diversity is our greatest attribute, yet we expect other diverse cultures to accept our culture as their own or else they are wrong.
Perhaps it is the numerous frosty brews I have consumed tonight. Perhaps I am more in tune with history. Perhaps I am a misguided realist or isolationist. I know I am already a hypocrite, but how many of you really don't believe you are guilty of the same?

In reply to Kenny_McCormic:

To compare a law banning a sexual orientation to the extermination of millions is a bit of a stretch. And the Jews were not a scapegoat localized to just Germany at that particular time. That was more of a lesson(which humanity obviously didn't learn from) in what happens when a small group of shiny happy people take something too far.

A not so ninja edit here: Out of 196 sovereign nations on this planet, 83 have laws explicitly banning homosexuality. Uganda doesn't seem to be as isolated in their cultural belief as the original post wanted us to believe. If you don't believe me, I implore you to conduct the Google search to see for yourself.

yamaha wrote: In reply to Wally: Hence the double edged sword, our nation legitimately attempts to better some others, but at the same time, our largest exports are our ideals, customs, and beliefs, which happens to be the same very reason our nation was founded. The British pushed their morals, ideals, and agenda upon us, we disagreed with that occurring. That ladies and gentleman is why we are no longer a commonwealth of the British empire. While we believe in basic human rights here, at the same time, we have lost the respect for other cultures and ways of life. Perhaps it is part of my generation(and surely several before it) being taught our whole lives with how we are all equals, regardless of race, religion, preferences, etc......so we legitimately believe that everyone else in the world should share that viewpoint so we are unprepared or outraged by things like this. My closing argument is more of a question, where did we lose our way from the lessons learned that made us a great nation to begin with? Diversity is our greatest attribute, yet we expect other diverse cultures to accept our culture as their own or else they are wrong. Perhaps it is the numerous frosty brews I have consumed tonight. Perhaps I am more in tune with history. Perhaps I am a misguided realist or isolationist. I know I am already a hypocrite, but how many of you really don't believe you are guilty of the same?

There has been a change fairly recently. There is now a war on christmas, and easter, and etc etc etc, according to some christians. Those of us who do not believe feel somewhat differently. As time passes those who are opponents of civil rights will lose just as they have lost in the past. We have only to wait them out if we are not willing to engage in the fight. I know that this will be an unsavory victory, but it will be a victory all the same. In the interim we will have to swallow the hatred and wait for a different populace to take over.

In reply to mattm:

Thank you, I do agree that with time, eventually it will work to that point. To be outraged over these things and fall into the hatred that fosters with it will only set that end goal back even further. The worst thing is, after one battle is won, another crops up and even those previous victors become the oppressors. That seems to be the one true constant of humanity.

yamaha wrote: The sad truth here is that we earned that reputation from spreading and imposing our beliefs upon other sovereign nations(which is exactly what this thread is proving). Uganda surely isn't the first place this has happened, it won't be the last, nor will it matter what we think about it. Not everyone shares our belief structure, nor do they comprehend it. While I believe what has happened is ethicly wrong, I don't believe in imposing my personal beliefs/morals/ethics upon other cultures......as that would be completely against what values america was founded upon. I now patiently await someone here to get their knickers in a wad and resort to calling me derogatory slurs for this post.......despite the fact I believe in the equality issue that is being discussed.

I agree with much of what you say, but at the same time, there are many things we believe here, and some of them are greyer areas than others. A people can decide that they want to be communists, or sun worshippers, or a lot of other things we aren't, but the aspect of our culture (though which is not unique to us) that you can't lock someone up for who they are is among the items which I think should be universal, and are more a matter of basic human rights than the American way. This doesn't mean I think we should send paratroopers immediately (or any other similarly comical idea), but that Americans (or anyone else) expressing outrage over Uganda's decision is valid.

In reply to yamaha:

I hear some parallels here. Like "Such and such group is evil and subhuman! Our science says so!" Also, as I recall, homosexuals were persecuted during the holocaust.

If you want to talk about humanity learning, its also not much of a jump to compare this to McCarthyism e.g. "Joe Political Enemy is a homosexual (insert fabricated proof here)!!!"

Its not about beliefs, its about oppression.

I'm gonna stir the pot a bit: as far as the US being the 'big bully' of the planet, typically some E36 M3hole has problems, the media wrings its hands and says we need to go help these poor people, that help typically involves military action that the same news media now cherry picks to tell the planet what shiny happy people we are. Yeah I'm isolationist.

If, for instance, we were to go to Uganda because they were executing gays at some point they will get pissed that we intervened. Somebody will fire a shot and now it's on, buddy. So I say we stay the hell out.

As far as acceptance of gays, the planet is like SCCA: some people are gonna have to get gone before things will get better.