Ukraine

RexSeven wrote: CNN: Russian legislators vote unanimously to approve the use of military force in Ukraine.

This is scary. I haven't been more worried about the possibility of a conflict in about 15 years. Hearing Russian legislators give the go ahead for military force there sounds like the start of the third big war. This seems like a EU & friends vs Russia & friends showdown.

ronholm wrote: We should have had some Marines in the Ukraine teaching them boys how to fight. There are still some Americans who remember how to do it... and haven't been castrated by this kinder, friendlier, PC Army bullE36 M3. Despite huge Russian numbers, and the piss poor media coverage... The Georgian Army, a good percentage of which was fighting along side us in IRAQ, delivered a pretty good beating to the Russians on their way down... Just a small increase in the efforts we gave to support Georgia would have netted a very different result. They gave us a lot with their efforts in Iraq.. and IMO, we left them a bit high and dry when the E36 M3 hit the fan. All we needed to do was give Gen. Patton a few more gallons of gas and the world would be a much safer place right now... Semper Fi!

'Murica!! berkeley Yeah!!!

Umm... don't think Putin is gonna listen to Obama.

Uh oh

http://news.msn.com/world/ukraine-mobilizes-after-putins-declaration-of-war

In reply to fasted58:

No E36 M3 huh?

Very concerned about this. Ukraine will attempt to protect its sovereignty, and when the first shot is fired, who knows where Putin will stop.

bastomatic wrote: who knows where Putin will stop.

Yup. The only other country that makes me nervous when talking about war is China. Not Iran, not North Korea, not Syria, etc. Guess who China is great ol' pals with too.

Anti-stance wrote:

bastomatic wrote: who knows where Putin will stop.

Yup. The only other country that makes me nervous when talking about war is China. Not Iran, not North Korea, not Syria, etc. Guess who China is great ol' pals with too.

China has already condemned the action and is distancing themselves from Russia in general over this it seems.

In reply to wearymicrobe:

These articles seem to suggest there is more to it than just condemning Russia's actions, they seem to be against the EU and the west. They are trying to walk that back today, but I am not buying what China is selling unless it's in Walmart.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/27/us-ukraine-crisis-china-idUSBREA1Q06J20140227

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/02/us-ukraine-crisis-china-idUSBREA2108G20140302

ronholm wrote: We should have had some Marines in the Ukraine teaching them boys how to fight...

I am going to have to strongly disagree with you on that one. America has tried that a few times in the past, it didn't work out to well. I also find it hard to believe simple training would have shifted the balance, and that is why it generally leads to a lot more...

I also found it pretty silly when I heard Kerry say this morning something to the effect of "In the modern world there is no place for countries invading other countries using some trumped up excuse"... uhm.... yeah.... Russia will be real interested in listening to the US.

Anti-stance wrote: In reply to wearymicrobe: These articles seem to suggest there is more to it than just condemning Russia's actions, they seem to be against the EU and the west. They are trying to walk that back today, but I am not buying what China is selling unless it's in Walmart. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/27/us-ukraine-crisis-china-idUSBREA1Q06J20140227 http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/02/us-ukraine-crisis-china-idUSBREA2108G20140302

China is definitely walking a thin line. They want nothing to do with this and they definitely do want to pay for any of it as well.

I expect Russia to demand a split to the country using the newly minted Russian citizens to force the issue. Which give the west a way out, but in the long term will be even more of a issue as the heavy industry is not on there side and we/eu "will" put a defense force there in the long run as a buffer.

If there is any sort of major energy development in the next 10 years that disrupts 60% of their economy they are in serious trouble.

Sounds like a "Berlin Wall" solution coming soon.

Anti-stance wrote: Sounds like a "Berlin Wall" solution coming soon.

Maybe not a physical wall but the EU has been using that area as a buffer zone against Russia this just might formalize the line in the sand. I understand the "ethnically" Russians in the north might want this now but with most of the industry being on the EU side they might not end up in to good of shape in the long run unless Russia wants to plow tons of money into the region, money I might add they do not have.

Looks like Russia is taking a stand.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/02/world/europe/ukraine-politics/

These scenes come one day after Putin obtained permission from his parliament to use military force to protect Russian citizens in Ukraine, spurning Western pleas not to intervene. Putin cited in his request a threat posed to Russian citizens and military personnel based in southern Crimea.

wearymicrobe wrote: I understand the "ethnically" Russians in the north might want this now but with most of the industry being on the EU sideindustry being on the EU side they might not end up in to good of shape in the long run unless Russia wants to plow tons of money into the region, money I might add they do not have.

I thought the areas the favored the EU were in the north and southwest, and the those areas that favored the Russians were southeast portions of the country.

If we didn't want Russia to take over Ukraine then why did we start a revolution there?

Russia is the world's largest oil producer and supplies natural gas to a good chunk of the EU. There is nothing Obama can do about whatever Putin ends up doing other than continuing to wag his finger in his general direction and say silly things like "unacceptable" and make other empty verbal attempts to try to act like his input matters.

The lesson learned is that we never should have stuck our noses in Ukraine's business in the first place. Maybe we will have better luck with backing the coup in Venezuela.

In reply to T.J.:

The US started the revolution? Really, T.J.?

I don't know what zoo you're visiting but you need to go to the Exeunt display very quickly.

I had to google Exeunt.

Did USAID fund the opposition groups that overthrew the elected government?

How about the National Endowment for Democracy?

Who do you think is behind those groups?

We (the U.S.) perhaps didn't start the thing, but we've been pouring gasoline on the fire.

Anti-stance wrote:

bastomatic wrote: who knows where Putin will stop.

Yup. The only other country that makes me nervous when talking about war is China. Not Iran, not North Korea, not Syria, etc. Guess who China is great ol' pals with too.

China is the biggest paper tiger in the history of the world. Their entire society is based on western consumption. Their entire economy is based on projects that have no end results (vacant cities that can house millions). Their entire propaganda machine is based solely on maintaining stability. The LAST they they want is a war with anyone. They will be lucky to be a unified country in a generation.

Heres the excellent wikistrat discussion on China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wd-HoqNArI

oldsaw wrote: In reply to T.J.: The US started the revolution? Really, T.J.? I don't know what zoo you're visiting but you need to go to the Exeunt display very quickly.

Basically, TJ is one of those brainwashed people who want to blame everything on the US because a group from the US was funding elements of people that "helped" with the change.

Sorry there bud, but it wasn't a couple hundred people who made the difference, its the MILLIONS that marched against the elected government. Just an excerpt of what is going on (the best part is people will rail against the BBC as an unbiased news source, and then quote RT to back their point... yaok).

09:45: 45: The BBC's Ukraine analyst Olexiy Solohubenko says it appears that the far-right paramilitary movement Right Sector is becoming the target of all sorts of dodgy accusations. Their appeal to the Chechen warlord Doku Umarov seems to be a fake, and Right Sector press secretary Andriy Skoropadsky says the account was hacked at the time the appeal was allegedly sent. But don't worry about putting up both sides of the story red 09:34: Andrey in Donetsk, Ukraine emails: I live in Donetsk and I am Russian-speaking Ukrainian. From Friday Donetsk is overcrowded with outsiders whose job is to pretend to be us (locals). On Saturday they staged the protest meeting with Russian flags, and even announced a people's governor, right on the square - a person who no one had heard about before. I do not know what is happened in other eastern Ukrainian cities, but it looks like the same scenario as in Donetsk. Oh really? Red, I think you are a bit confused on my stance. I see nothing wrong with the whole Crimea thing. If they legitimately voted/wanted to be separated from Ukraine (which there is a referendum on, correct?), then good for them. However, what is the NEED for Russia to be IN Crimea? This isn't about them. Oh sure, you can claim that it really is, and I won't deny that maybe a lot of this is based around that. I would be completely against Ukraine for NOT letting Crimea become a more autonomous state of their own/become more closely tied with Russia if they wanted to. But that is NOT the discussion we are having. Russia, at this time, has invaded a sovereign state for NO reason. Ukrainian nationals aren't hunting down Russian people and killing them, which is what Russia makes it sound like. The overthrow of the government in Ukraine was not about Crimea, it was about corruption and scandal and going AGAINST the publics wishes for closer ties to the EU, with Russia essentially blackmailing Ukraine into dropping the talks with the EU. But I'm sure its all part of the west's plans to f*&k their E36 M3 up, right? Edit- 10:17: Shaun in the Lake District emails: While people are following the rhetoric that 'Crimea wants to be Russian', they seem to be skipping over the fact of the latest Gallup poll of Crimean residents where the results were 53% wanted to stay as an autonomy within Ukraine, and only 23% wanted to be separated and become an autonomy in Russia. Rigged poll, amirite? And all these soldiers in unmarked uniforms (who we know are Russian)... isn't that in clear violation of international military law? And yet most of them are... seems legit. Edit- More lulz Yaroslav Trofimov Wall Street Journal tweets: So far the only ethnic Russians beaten/arrested/persecuted are the ones trying to demonstrate in Moscow against the war on #Ukraine And finally, my whole point in this conversation, probably put a bit better than I can: 10:48: Ivar Bundulis in Edinburgh, Scotland emails: I really hope the decision-makers here see the potential for loss of human life and suffering that a conflict could bring. Their first priority should be to avoid war. Their second priority should be to respect the democratic will of the people. If the people of Crimea vote to leave the Ukraine and rejoin Russia, then that should be respected by all parties and brought about in a fair and just manner. Just like the wishes of the rest of the Ukraine to have closer ties to the west should be respected.

The last BBC news feed item is to highlight my opinion on the matter. I am not saying that the US didn't have ZERO to do with what happened, THAT would be absurd thinking (its a possibility, but it is also a possibility that they did. To firmly stake yourself in one or the other camp is stupid). But to say that the US CAUSED the change, well that is just ridiculous.

And finally, what berkeleying right does Russia have to invade Crimia? Absoberkeleyinglutly none. End of discussion. If you have a problem with the way your country (the US) has handled itself in the recent decade or so, you'll absolutely condemn this sort of behavior. Lol, funding unrest is the equivalent of occupying a country? Maybe the Russian gov strong arming Ukraine into nixing a deal that was all but complete with the EU had something to do with it... naw, that can't possibly be it.

Edit- I can't get the quote to format.

America often makes the mistake of thinking that everyone lives in reality as we know it. Some people live in an alternate reality of their own. This situation reminds me of a quote I read once" No one ever made themselves taller by standing on someone else". Russia will use the pretext of protecting their interests to quash a unified Ukraine. The Russians want warm water ports.

T.J. wrote: If we didn't want Russia to take over Ukraine then why did we start a revolution there? Russia is the world's largest oil producer and supplies natural gas to a good chunk of the EU. There is nothing Obama can do about whatever Putin ends up doing other than continuing to wag his finger in his general direction and say silly things like "unacceptable" and make other empty verbal attempts to try to act like his input matters. The lesson learned is that we never should have stuck our noses in Ukraine's business in the first place. Maybe we will have better luck with backing the coup in Venezuela.

This is an excellent example of the attitude that makes me say we need to go back to being isolationist. If we supply aid of any sort to anyone it now becomes our fault if things go awry. It's exactly why Bush II chose to stay out of Darfur.

Curmudgeon wrote: It's exactly why Bush II chose to stay out of Darfur.

No worries, Bush III is tasked with wiping Africa off the map.

I just want to go on record as saying "I have no idea what is really going on in the Ukrane".

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:

Well, it might end up like a "Modern US invades Canada" scenario......except we might be able to capture all of canada before Survivor comes on.