Ukraine

GPS, Ukraine tried to fire their pimp and go rogue, Pimps best customer has stepped in to take the action for himself AFAIK. .

In reply to TRoglodyte:

So...

Ukrane: "We are free from (insert tyrant)!"
Putin: "Nyet".

Does that some it up?

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: In reply to TRoglodyte: So... Ukrane: "We are free from (insert tyrant)!" Putin: "Not anymore". Does that some it up?

FTFY.

HiTempguy wrote:

oldsaw wrote: And finally, what berkeleying right does Russia have to invade Crimia? Absoberkeleyinglutly none. End of discussion. If you have a problem with the way your country (the US) has handled itself in the recent decade or so, you'll absolutely condemn this sort of behavior.

I'm not defending Russia's invasion. I am deploring our involvement in the entire mess. A democratically elected leader is overthrown by a bunch of unhappy folks that just happened to be on the receiving end of U.S. aid and our official diplomatic response as the self appointed defender of liberty and spreader of democracy is to cheer it all on and say it is time for 'reform".

I will not pretend to be an expert on the Ukraine and the events that are going on over there, but I don't trust a single thing the government tells me.

The risk/benefit of isolationism is that the world will still blame us for problems in their country, culture, or region, whether our government is involved in their country, a private business or corporation, or just our media (popular culture) invading their country. The benefit is at least we're not spending ourselves into oblivion trying to prove to countries that the way we do things isn't half bad and can have lasting positive influence.

The risk is that our enemies can build forces unimpeded, or convert entire nations to totalitarian (religious or secular) states that are more difficult to bring into the world economic fold at a later time.

I think Cuba is a good example of perhaps the positive roll of isolation, and maybe to some extent Iran. Both have societies that highly value education, and in Cuba's case, some national policies that have made its economy sustainable, even if it is weak.

If Cuba or Iran were to go democratic overnight, many of their citizens would probably WANT to keep many of the social policies that their current governments had instituted while adopting more free trade and private business.

We've stayed out of Russian politics and while they followed some examples of free market economics, they've also created some evils of their own. Russia is strong, but where as we seem to push our model by example, Russia likes to push their model by force.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: In reply to TRoglodyte: So... Ukrane: "We are free from (insert tyrant)!" Putin: "Nyet". Does that some it up?

Pretty much. Apparently that is a piece of action big daddy likes alot. Stay tuned , big daddy can fit a lot of dead hookers in his trunk.

In reply to T.J.:

Pretty much everyone has claimed those last elections had been rigged......and somehow the deposed ex-prez amassed billions in net worth over the last few years. Yea, they had a very justified reason to punt that shiny happy person to the curb. It just required leverage on the parliment.

Russia launches 'propaganda' war over Ukraine

It will be interesting to see how effective pure propaganda will be in this case. I know Russia has a pretty fully controlled media, but I don't think their internet is filtered. Internet access appears to be only around 50% in Russia though. It's a bit hard to spew out total B.S. when it's constantly being counter acted by various internet sources.

Apparently they are not getting it totally right though:

In an embarrassing blooper on Sunday, Channel One illustrated a story on thousands of Ukrainians seeking shelter in Russia -- as Russian officials have claimed -- with footage of cars queuing to cross into Poland. The Channel One news item clearly shows the name of the border post as Shehyni on Ukraine's western border with Poland, as the news reader says that "more and more Ukrainians are arriving in southern regions of Russia."

I am sure those responsible have been sacked. And by sacked I mean put in a sack and thrown in the Volga.

In reply to aircooled:

They endoctrinate the people to believe only the state media and that everything on the internet is a lie......

aircooled wrote: It's a bit hard to spew out total B.S. when it's constantly being counter acted by various internet sources.

The U.S government and their PR lackeys known as the media have been fairly successful doing just this for some time now. Look at all the stories that trumpet the economic recovery. Then look at the actual data and it is obvious that the headlines do not follow from the data or that the data only supports the story line because of "seasonal adjustments". Another trick is to report some bit of good news and then quietly a month or two later, go back and revise the numbers to reflect something closer to the truth, but there are usually no headlines for these actions. Whether it is the false story that the government has turned into big brother to protect us from the terrorists, the unemployment rate, existing home sales, the results of retailers like Best Buy, JC Pennys or Target, Syria, Iran or any number of other totally BS story lines the media and government feed us, the people for the most part either accept the lies as truths because they want to believe or they can't/won't think for themselves and draw their own conclusions.

In short, I'm sure Russia will be able to mount a very good PR/propaganda campaign, just as the other side will try to get their side of the story heard. Propaganda is easy - maybe easier than ever despite the internet. It would seem that the internet would have the opposite effect in that it allows more people more access to information, but I think it has become too much information to sort through and the truth is hard to come by.

aircooled wrote: Russia launches 'propaganda' war over Ukraine It will be interesting to see how effective pure propaganda will be in this case.

It will be very effective... The Russians are very good at this stuff.. For a while they even let us think they lost the cold war..

Seriously... Don't let this derail the thread... But most of the MAJOR opposition to the 2003 Iraq invasion was from Russia.. They were funding Saddam, Saddam was funding Zawahiri..

The Russians are VERY VERY good at that stuff... and it isn't limited to their own 'state controlled" media.

Did ya'll see the picture TIME recently published?

There shouldn't be any military action from anyone in Ukraine, but our POTUS and govt. have GOT to quit drawing lines and demanding, knowing full well there will be nothing that follows. We look like idiots and it emboldens those that oppose us. It's to the point that where it no longer matters what the United States says or does, as we will no longer support our allies or do what is right.

As for the news, one of the problems is that most of the main stream media "buys" it's news from clearing houses with talking points put out by controlling party. The days of having real reporters is long gone.

aircooled wrote:

ronholm wrote: We should have had some Marines in the Ukraine teaching them boys how to fight...

I am going to have to strongly disagree with you on that one. America has tried that a few times in the past, it didn't work out to well. I also find it hard to believe simple training would have shifted the balance, and that is why it generally leads to a lot more... I also found it pretty silly when I heard Kerry say this morning something to the effect of "In the modern world there is no place for countries invading other countries using some trumped up excuse"... uhm.... yeah.... Russia will be real interested in listening to the US.

I don't really disagree with the basis for you disagreement.. All to often we leave this stuff up to this pinheads who think you can teach warfighting skills and have a warrior. Knowing how to shoot straight or understanding interlocking fields of fire isn't at the core what makes a man effective on the battlefield.

and you can't learn it from a weekend class...

I get that..

The problem we have is mutton heads like Mullen are getting promoted, and great men like Gen Mattis are getting fired... and this is what we are teaching.

And Kerry... good lord... That is clown... I'd bring up the caliber of persons chosen for that position and compare them to the type of people more recently appointed.. but it wouldn't be the right fight to be having right now.

ronholm wrote: Did ya'll see the picture TIME recently published?

Was it this one?

I meant they had (uncommonly) one cover for US consumption.. and another for the rest of the world.

http://dailycaller.com/2013/09/16/time-mag-hides-putins-success-from-u-s-voters/

ronholm wrote: I meant they had (uncommonly) one cover for US consumption.. and another for the rest of the world. http://dailycaller.com/2013/09/16/time-mag-hides-putins-success-from-u-s-voters/

Well isn't that spiffy.

The US population is notoriously uninterested in foreign affairs (especially Europe).

Time is just playing to their market. I would not read too much into myself.

racerdave600 wrote: There shouldn't be any military action from anyone in Ukraine, but our POTUS and govt. have GOT to quit drawing lines and demanding, knowing full well there will be nothing that follows. We look like idiots and it emboldens those that oppose us. It's to the point that where it no longer matters what the United States says or does, as we will no longer support our allies or do what is right.

You know there is only one solution to this recent problem.....berkeleying follow through with it. We're just going to see this more and more often thanks to syria calling our bluff.

Sooner or later the two toughest kids on the block will have to tussle.....

T.J. wrote: A democratically elected leader I will not pretend to be an expert on the Ukraine and the events that are going on over there, but I don't trust a single thing the government tells me.

To the first point, nope, not really, the election was fairly fraudulent by "our" standards.

I am not pretending to be an expert either, but to say you can't have an informed opinion because everyone is lying is... beyond ridiculous. Like, tinfoil hat stuff.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26424738

But its ok, Russia has apparently said they'll assault Ukrainian forces if they don't surrender their bases in Crimea. Lulz.

In reply to HiTempguy:

I certainly didn't mean to tell you, or others, you can not have an informed opinion. I didn't say everyone is lying, I said I do not trust a single thing my government says. Remember when the Director of National Intelligence lied to Congress and said that the NSA wasn't collecting our phone calls and emails? See my previous post for a short laundry list of other blatant lies from the government. Not tinfoil hat stuff at all, I've just be taught to not trust them because they continually lie.

The U.S. has sent troops to the former Yugoslavia, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and continues to murder folks with drones in several other countries we are not at war with and somehow Russia never seemed to threaten us over it. We went into all of these countries for somewhat similar reasons as Russia going into Crimea. At least Russia has an interest in protecting their border in this case that we didn't have in any of our interventions.

Seems to me, we need to stop the hypocritical BS, shut up and stay out of the way. I don't believe for a moment that this situation will devolve into a war between the U.S. and Russia, and it seems like Putin doesn't either so he will continue to ignore the silly statements from Obama and Kerry. We have no ground to stand on in accusing the Russians of doing anything wrong, unless we wish to also call into question our undeclared wars and withdraw.

In reply to T.J.:

While I don't agree with our recent transgressions, how many of them immediately followed a regime change? Thats the more important thing here.

We're regime topplers, not "reinstaters"

T.J. wrote: The U.S. has sent troops to the former Yugoslavia, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and continues to murder folks with drones in several other countries we are not at war with and somehow Russia never seemed to threaten us over it. We went into all of these countries for somewhat similar reasons as Russia going into Crimea. At least Russia has an interest in protecting their border in this case that we didn't have in any of our interventions. Seems to me, we need to stop the hypocritical BS, shut up and stay out of the way. I don't believe for a moment that this situation will devolve into a war between the U.S. and Russia, and it seems like Putin doesn't either so he will continue to ignore the silly statements from Obama and Kerry. We have no ground to stand on in accusing the Russians of doing anything wrong, unless we wish to also call into question our undeclared wars and withdraw.

Agree it is really hard to call the Russian on the same thing we have done again and again.

Plus Russia cannot be to happy with the agreement the EU put forward to the old leader, Yanukovych, which you have to assume would be approved by the new leaders which included a clause which would bring Ukraine into the EU defense structure. This on top of years of NATO expanding into former Soviet republics and Warsaw Pact nations that we had promised not to do during Bush I's years in office. I doubt any leaders of the US would react to kindly if Russia came to a similar agreement with Mexico or Canada.

Also you add on top of that the new leaders of Ukraine have already enacted a law which bans the speaking Russian and other minority languages. And one of the key allies of the new government is Svoboda party which the EU has denounced as "racist, anti-semitic and xenophobic." It really isn't a surprise that Russia has moved forces into the Crimean region. You poke a bear long enough and he will bite.

yamaha wrote:

racerdave600 wrote: There shouldn't be any military action from anyone in Ukraine, but our POTUS and govt. have GOT to quit drawing lines and demanding, knowing full well there will be nothing that follows. We look like idiots and it emboldens those that oppose us. It's to the point that where it no longer matters what the United States says or does, as we will no longer support our allies or do what is right.

You know there is only one solution to this recent problem.....berkeleying follow through with it. We're just going to see this more and more often thanks to syria calling our bluff. Sooner or later the two toughest kids on the block will have to tussle.....

This right here is truth...

WE signed a Treaty with the Ukrainians... and they disarmed because of it.. Slick willy and that drunkard Yeltsin were able to make a deal.. and Obama and Putin agreed to continue with it..

http://unterm.un.org/DGAACS/unterm.nsf/8fa942046ff7601c85256983007ca4d8/fa03e45d114224af85257b64007687e0?OpenDocument

Now what we have is Putin doing whatever the hell he wants, Obama threatening to not talk to him anymore if he doesn't stop it... and that idiot Lurch (the ketchup king) praising the Ukrainians for not doing anything whilst Putin rolls them over...

This isn't going to end well.

This sounds like a plan to me..

http://acmeofskill.com/?p=2576