Ukraine

In reply to ronholm:

Yep, an interesting thing is that the people who are coming to power in the Ukraine are the first generation of the "Post Soviet Union" era. If they are forced to fight Russia, they will.

The problem is, that Russia has a base there, and Ukraine controls a lot of oil. This really is about natural resources. Russia is not going to back down, the US is not going to do anything, and we will come out looking like a weak country that bails on our allies. Europe can't do anything because they get a lot of oil out of Ukraine, and Putin can simply cut it off. This isn't going to end well for someone. After this, Putin will probably keep going and try to put the old Soviet Union back together. He's mentioned it before as a goal, and know sees no one to stop him.

Sounds kind of like a Iraq Kuwait situation in the Persian Gulf War. Different politics of course but similar economic and geographic relationship.

In reply to racerdave600:

Russia leases said base from Ukraine.....and Russia has other vast oil fields to worry about. Putin's end goal here is to show the world that we are weak....not protecting ethnic Russians, oil, rebuilding the ussr, etc. He wants to embarass us to better position Russia on the top in global affairs.

yamaha wrote: ...He wants to embarrass us to better position Russia on the top in global affairs....

To me that sounds a bit like that old joke:

"how many Americans does it take to screw in a light bulb?"

"one"

"he just holds it and the world revolves around him"

But really, it's not ALWAYS about the US.

In reply to aircooled:

I fear this time it is, it happened prior to The Great War(World War 1 for the illiterate), it happened prior to World War 2. History has an odd knack of repeating itself afterall.

racerdave600 wrote: SNIP{{ After this, Putin will probably keep going and try to put the old Soviet Union back together. He's mentioned it before as a goal, and know sees no one to stop him.

You got it right

"What likely worries Russia’s neighbors most is the statement the Kremlin made on March 2, after Putin spoke on the phone with U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon. “Vladimir Putin noted that in case of any escalation of violence against the Russian-speaking population of the eastern regions of Ukraine and Crimea, Russia would not be able to stay away and would resort to whatever measures are necessary in compliance with international law.” This sets a horrifying precedent for all of Russia’s neighbors."

Simon Shuster brings up some interesting points in this story, take a look.

http://news.yahoo.com/4-reasons-putin-already-losing-ukraine-211452971.html

I think you are right about Putin being on a bit of a jr. "world dominance" tour here (trying to get his old toys back), but the start of WWI was really almost a "everyone wants to fight for glory, we just need an excuse" kind of thing, while WWII was much more of a "world dominance tour" with some revenge thrown in as a bonus. Both of which were propagated by various interlocking treaties.

I really don't see embarrassing (lets just say Britain in both cases) was the prime motivator. The idea that Putin is doing this to make the US look bad seems pretty silly. The fact that it might make the US look bad is more the fault of the US self appointing itself as the World Police.

I don't think Putin give a crap about the US other then being sure they don't get in his way, or we don't arrange some sort of fight.

I can also see, even with Russia tight control on its media, these sort of things not going down well with the Russian people (especially if people start getting killed). These are the times when things like Twitter (e.g. Egypt) can be very powerful. Freedom of information can be very powerful and is much harder to stop these days (even China has issues with it).

Quoted for truth

The idea that Putin is doing this to make the US look bad seems pretty silly. The fact that it might make the US look bad is more the fault of the US self appointing itself as the World Police.

crankwalk wrote: Sounds kind of like a Iraq Kuwait situation in the Persian Gulf War. Different politics of course but similar economic and geographic relationship.

Very true. Iraq want the oil fields and better port. The difference there was Saddam thought he had the "okay" to do so, Putin doesn't give a E36 M3 about an "okay".

BREAKING: Putin annexes Brighton Beach to protect ethnic Russians in Brooklyn, Obama appeals to UN and EU for help

Interesting. I did not know the Ukraine was US soil and the Ukrainians US citizens... otherwise, that would just be a blatant founder attempt...

In other news: Peruvian woman wants to know why Obama is not keeping her neighbor from stealing her turnips.

sorry

I wasn't much of an Obama fan to begin with...

And now you have the Ukraine.. Who essentially disarmed over a treaty with Clinton and the drunk yeltsin... A treaty at which Obama himself went and continued...

and now that EXACTLY what we promised these people wouldn't happen is happening... The best we got is a picture of that total badass talking on the phone to Putin in his mom jeans... Threatening to not call him again if it don't stop...

It is one thing if you don't want to make these kinds of deals... and another to continue them when you should know yourself well enough to know you don't have the stomach to follow through with it..

I have had about enough of that kind of crap...

Without your word you have nothing... Don't give it if you don't mean it...

And to think... This Obama clown ran the first time around on restoring our image with the world... Ya think the media will cover how much he hasn't accomplished anything close to that... At least with GWB.. They may not have liked some of the things we did.. But that guy and those he appointed could be counted on to be true to their word as much as anyone might expect from a politician...

They damn sure weren't promising guys "more flexibility after the election" or any of that kind of crap..

So, we already knew that the US and the EU were behind the overthrow of the previous Ukrainian government from the leaked phone call back in December between the US assistant secretary of state and the US envoy to Ukraine, but now a new leaked phone call says that the new Ukrainian government, who we supported, is the entity that hired snipers to fire on police and protesters alike. The neo-fascist folks who proclaim they had to get rid of the old government for firing on protestors are the same folks who actually fired on the protestors. What a mess.

I expect this story won't get a lot of airplay in the US media just like the December phonecall with the infamous "berkeley the EU" statement.

T.J. wrote: So, we already knew that the US and the EU were behind the overthrow of the previous Ukrainian government from the leaked phone call back in December between the US assistant secretary of state and the US envoy to Ukraine, but now a new leaked phone call says that the new Ukrainian government, who we supported, is the entity that hired snipers to fire on police and protesters alike. The neo-fascist folks who proclaim they had to get rid of the old government for firing on protestors are the same folks who actually fired on the protestors. What a mess. I expect this story won't get a lot of airplay in the US media just like the December phonecall with the infamous "berkeley the EU" statement.

Link?

ronholm wrote: Without your word you have nothing... Don't give it if you don't mean it...

This statement, in regards to a politician........you owe me a keyboard!

In reply to 93EXCivic:

link

In reply to aircooled:

I wasn't referencing the reason we got involved, just the similarities leading up.

There have also been a few "Anti-Invasion" marches in Moscow that aren't approved and the marchers being quickly arrested.....and that was coming from the BBC through NPR yesterday.

In reply to aussiesmg:

Its just what happened after the fall of the soviets, we were left alone at the top, and the world expected us to do everything for them(as we had been since 1941)

In reply to T.J.:

I'm pretty sure that was an Ambassador saying "berkeley the EU" in a private phone conversation.

In reply to yamaha:

It was the Assistant Secretary of State who said it as part of a discussion of how to overthrow the government because the U.S. and the EU wanted different things out of it. Apparently, the didn't count on Putin being Putin. It was a private phone conversation that Russia intercepted and posted on YouTube. It was grand listening to the protests from the U.S officials decrying such an invasion of their privacy all the while they tell us we have no privacy and they will continue to record all of our calls, read all of our emails and texts.

The actual transcript of the phone call is a bit hard to follow unless, but it seems clear that the U.S. wanted to government to fall and was working towards that end back in December, at least trying to have some control over who the new leader would be.

T.J. wrote: It was the Assistant Secretary of State who said it as part of a discussion of how to overthrow the government because the U.S. and the EU wanted different things out of it. Apparently, the didn't count on Putin being Putin.

You just identified the problem.....

In spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the Administration naively and unrealistically believed Putin is something more than a thug bent on restoring a Russian empire.

z31maniac wrote:

ronholm wrote: Without your word you have nothing... Don't give it if you don't mean it...

Damn.. you are right... At this point I would settle for a guy simply acting like he said what he meant and meant what he said... Good grief!!! This statement, in regards to a politician........you owe me a keyboard!

In other news...

http://maidantranslations.com/2014/03/17/turkey-under-ottoman-empire-treaty-with-catherine-the-great-if-crimea-declares-independence-it-returns-to-turkey/