Union Concessions

Well, the good news is (for this guy anyway,) if some Dems have their way, we (the taxpayers) will at least be expected to pay his pension; possibly with an across-the-board tax on non-union employees' retirement plans...because, you know, you don't really need that money; certainly not as much as the guy who's gotten paid to sit in the rubber room for the last 20 years.

The Union Pension Bailout: A scheme for taxpayers to cover mismanaged multi-employer plans.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303491304575188263180553530.html

The shipping industry, as in the ships, as in the United States Merchant Marine, over which many wars were started to protect over the centuries. The rules forced all ships to become foreign flagged. There's just a few left, and they are mostly on US military charter. There is virtually no United States Merchant Marine anymore. Once we ruled the seas. The rules and taxes killed the industry. If you think that ship flagged in Liberia and crewed with Philipinos or Chinese has any loyalty to your country, you are greatly mistaken. One big political event and they won't bring you your I-Phone. Or your oil. Tough luck. They've done it before. Yes, poor management is a problem too, but that is forced on us by a poor business structure rewarding short term (tomorrow) "profits" versus long term gains.

Oh, and what washing machines are made here? Last I heard the last plant was in Fort Smith, AR and it shut down a few months ago. The last Levi (jeans) jacket plant was there and it shut down years ago for China.

Hess- which regulations do you want to see go away, and would you personally be willing to work without those rules? Which ones, specifically, caused the problems?

I keep hearing this over-regulation- but few candidates or people are specific in which regulations they want to see go away.

Whirlpool makes clothes washers (Clyde, OH), dishwashers (Findlay, OH), side-by-side refrigerators, counter-depth refrigerators, trash compactors, ice makers (Fort Smith, AR), built-in ranges, cooktop ranges, built-in microwaves, freestanding ranges (Tulsa, OK)

You can find where they have plants here- http://www.whirlpoolcareers.com/locations/default.aspx
I count 14 US factories not including their SW Michigan base.

Bosch does make Kitchen stuff in the US, but they are german.

Here's a website I've found- not sure how up to date it is- http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/

How is short term gains style management forced on us? Companies can choose to look long term. Well, unless they belive that their stock price has a real meaning.

yes.. the true problem is short term goals. I do not know about the businesses you work for.. but I know here at Harrah's Corp (worlds largest gaming firm) the directors get their bonuses based on how much money they saved the company.

There is a reason my department went from 18 to 9 people.. with no let up in the amount of work we had to do

alfadriver wrote: I keep hearing this over-regulation- but few candidates or people are specific in which regulations they want to see go away.

I can't cite the specific regulation or anything like that, but I will give you an example of how common sense is COMPLETELY gone from the Navy, NGSS, BIW, etc.

As some of you may remember I'm a Tech Writer for a defense company.

I recently had to write a "Safety Hazard Analysis Report" on some equipment we were building for the Navy. I had this report "Not accepted" twice because I didn't include things in the analysis like (and this is no joke/exagerration)

1. If you close the door on your hand, you could injure yourself.
2. If there is a sharp corner protruding from the equipment, you may cut yourself.

I know this is a small example, but it's telling of the overall theme of gov't interference. That takes time and costs money.

You're going to the complete opposite extreme saying that because we want some common sense in what's going on, that really means we want companies to dump toxic wastes in rivers, lakes.........whip people who take breaks or something.

Oh and I posted this from home, I only work 4 days a week.

racinginc215 wrote:

DrBoost wrote: Ok, the local news station just aired an interview with a man that was complaining about a letter he just got in the mail. The letter was to inform him he would no longer be paid $28 per hour, now it'll be just $15. He had some valid concerns like "I've been at the job for 10 years and I have a standard of living, like this house and my car and I'd like to put my kids through college. Now I can't". Ok, that does suck. Then he complained about how he's seen the union bend over backwards to help a drunk keep his job but do nothing for him. That's when I want to slap him around a bit. The union kept your job for you. GM couldn't afford to keep paying you $28/hour + bennies and overtime to put head bolts on an engine or bolt seats into a car. Do you realize your job is freaking easy both mentally and physically? You didn't go to college to get the skills necessary, there aren't 10's of thousands of dollars invested in a tool set that allows you to do your job. There's no inherent risk in your job. Basically there's NOTHING that makes your job so specialized that it deserves nearly 60 grand a year base pay. Your job pays $15/hour and that's rather generous so freaking deal with it! [rant over]

Just remember this when GM Chrysler and Ford get the UAW down to 15 bucks an hour it will make your job worth 7.50 So get ready to make 1/4 of what you were making. I on the other hand will still be making 28.12 and having a good laugh at your expense. would you care to sell me your toys now or wait until you have to pay the mortgage on 7.50 an hour?

I would say something about not needing to be in a union to make that much.............but I'll leave the arrogance to you.

OK. This law: SOX. Now we have people running around with accounting degrees telling us that we have to do 100 hours of work for a 10 minute code change. If you ask why, the answer is: "SOX!!!" The company gets billed 100 hours for that 10 minutes of actual work. That's one small example. How about the law making it a Federal felony to violate a foreign country's rules? Surely you have been reading the news for the past few days and read of the man who did eight years in the Federal Pen for aranging to buy lobster tails that were packed in paper instead of plastic, or vice versa from the Honduras? The same ones that he had been buying for years, the same way, and, oh yeah, the Honduras declared that law stoopid anyway?

We produce among other things, safety products for the mining and oil industry. In many ways, the US is the hardest country we have to do business in, and in most ways, they are about a century behind some other countries like South Africa and Australia in technology, especially mining.

According to one guy that works for us, formerly with the US govt. body that controls mining, no one there really wants to make a decision of any kind and take responsibility. They put off as much as possible as long as possible so nothing ever gets done. Then they complain that they need more funding as the reason nothing is getting done. We basically developed a product on the request of the govt., and as of now, have the only working model in the world, and the US govt. is dragging it's feet about approving it. It passes test after test, and nothing. This is just one reason we do most of our business now outside of the US. They make is as difficult as possible on us, although not as much as the mines themselves, and yes, other countries have approached us about relocating with VERY attractive incentives.

z31maniac wrote:

alfadriver wrote: I keep hearing this over-regulation- but few candidates or people are specific in which regulations they want to see go away.

I can't cite the specific regulation or anything like that, but I will give you an example of how common sense is COMPLETELY gone from the Navy, NGSS, BIW, etc. As some of you may remember I'm a Tech Writer for a defense company. I recently had to write a "Safety Hazard Analysis Report" on some equipment we were building for the Navy. I had this report "Not accepted" twice because I didn't include things in the analysis like (and this is no joke/exagerration) 1. If you close the door on your hand, you could injure yourself. 2. If there is a sharp corner protruding from the equipment, you may cut yourself. I know this is a small example, but it's telling of the overall theme of gov't interference. That takes time and costs money. You're going to the complete opposite extreme saying that because we want some common sense in what's going on, that really means we want companies to dump toxic wastes in rivers, lakes.........whip people who take breaks or something. Oh and I posted this from home, I only work 4 days a week.

That sounds more like protection from litigation than regulation. Find the regulation that specifies that accuacy.

Dr. Hess wrote: OK. This law: SOX. Now we have people running around with accounting degrees telling us that we have to do 100 hours of work for a 10 minute code change. If you ask why, the answer is: "SOX!!!" The company gets billed 100 hours for that 10 minutes of actual work. That's one small example. How about the law making it a Federal felony to violate a foreign country's rules? Surely you have been reading the news for the past few days and read of the man who did eight years in the Federal Pen for aranging to buy lobster tails that were packed in paper instead of plastic, or vice versa from the Honduras? The same ones that he had been buying for years, the same way, and, oh yeah, the Honduras declared that law stoopid anyway?

Where is that SOX regulation? Don't see that as an example of a regulation passed by congress being so evil.

Geez- at least I can find the regulations that govern my work at EPA.gov.

As for the federal felony- I'll call BS on that- if that was true- we'd have a bunch of private contractors who would be in trouble for how they interrogate people. The real story must be deeper than that.

Besides, you keep telling me that the Merchant Marines are going down the tubes for alleged regulations. Which ones, again?

racerdave600 wrote: We produce among other things, safety products for the mining and oil industry. In many ways, the US is the hardest country we have to do business in, and in most ways, they are about a century behind some other countries like South Africa and Australia in technology, especially mining. According to one guy that works for us, formerly with the US govt. body that controls mining, no one there really wants to make a decision of any kind and take responsibility. They put off as much as possible as long as possible so nothing ever gets done. Then they complain that they need more funding as the reason nothing is getting done. We basically developed a product on the request of the govt., and as of now, have the only working model in the world, and the US govt. is dragging it's feet about approving it. It passes test after test, and nothing. This is just one reason we do most of our business now outside of the US. They make is as difficult as possible on us, although not as much as the mines themselves, and yes, other countries have approached us about relocating with VERY attractive incentives.

Maybe, just maybe, we should fund those departments? What you are missing is that the mining industry has been very much against government intervention for all 234 years the US has been a country. And thanks to that, the mining and drilling industry and the eco industry just butt heads.

I can't say anything bad about unions. When I was a college student, I worked various summer jobs for minimum wage when minimum wage was 3.35 an hour. A friend's dad worked at a union shop and he got me a job working in a film extrusion plant. I had no relevant experience. I joined the union and made between 10 and 15 an hour. I owe my B.S. degree to unions. The only people against unions are the people who aren't in a union.

How else but with a union is a no-count college student with no experience going to make 4 times the minimum wage?

1988RedT2 wrote: The only people against unions are the people who aren't in a union.

That's not true.

I was not only in the UAW/CAW, but I was on the negotiating committee, and a steward, and I was against the union in out plant.

Zomby woof wrote:

1988RedT2 wrote: The only people against unions are the people who aren't in a union.

That's not true. I was not only in the UAW/CAW, but I was on the negotiating committee, and a steward, and I was against the union in out plant.

I understand and appreciate your remark. Just to be clear, I'm very much against unions in general.

racinginc215 wrote:

DrBoost wrote: Ok, the local news station just aired an interview with a man that was complaining about a letter he just got in the mail. The letter was to inform him he would no longer be paid $28 per hour, now it'll be just $15. He had some valid concerns like "I've been at the job for 10 years and I have a standard of living, like this house and my car and I'd like to put my kids through college. Now I can't". Ok, that does suck. Then he complained about how he's seen the union bend over backwards to help a drunk keep his job but do nothing for him. That's when I want to slap him around a bit. The union kept your job for you. GM couldn't afford to keep paying you $28/hour + bennies and overtime to put head bolts on an engine or bolt seats into a car. Do you realize your job is freaking easy both mentally and physically? You didn't go to college to get the skills necessary, there aren't 10's of thousands of dollars invested in a tool set that allows you to do your job. There's no inherent risk in your job. Basically there's NOTHING that makes your job so specialized that it deserves nearly 60 grand a year base pay. Your job pays $15/hour and that's rather generous so freaking deal with it! [rant over]

Just remember this when GM Chrysler and Ford get the UAW down to 15 bucks an hour it will make your job worth 7.50 So get ready to make 1/4 of what you were making. I on the other hand will still be making 28.12 and having a good laugh at your expense. would you care to sell me your toys now or wait until you have to pay the mortgage on 7.50 an hour?

How do you figure that? The UAW is having it's wages adjusted for reality now. Seriously now. Like I said, there are some jobs that warrant higher wages, like ones that are difficult, dangerous or require some amount of intelligence and sorry, working on an assembly line just ain't it. I feel for the guy, really I do. I just can't believe there are people out there think that a job like that is worth 60K a year. Heck, when I was a tech at a Dodge dealer the first Viper we sold was to a janitor at a Chrysler dealership. Good for him but what about the guy that is a janitor at a school? Why isn't he pulling 6 figures a year with OT? And about being able to afford to buy the products you build......so someone snapping together toys for McDonalds would get paid waaaaay less than someone snapping circuit boards into modules, and he should get paid waaaaaay less than the guy that puts the hood ornament on a Mercedes? Why, the jobs are the same level of difficulty, who would work for McDonalds or Frito Lay?

oldsaw wrote:

gamby wrote: Sometimes you just want to do your job (the one you were hired to do, the one that is your job description) without being made completely miserable by management. Crazy concept.

Sometimes, it's wise to accept and embrace taking-on those additional duties. It's a good path towards advancement or (at least) padding your resume. If you believe your job should only be based upon a "description", you're already in a hole you dug for yourself.

This is a "job" not a "career" that I took because initially, it was a fun, low-stress way to make some extra coin. After a couple of regime changes, it has become borderline unbearable.

Nothing good has come out of these additional duties being piled upon the staff. It's resulted in a bunch of disgruntled, burned-out folks. It's for sure a means to an end in a company that doesn't seem to see turnover as a detriment.

I worked for a company that headed down a similar road and they're now gone.

1988RedT2 wrote:

Zomby woof wrote:

1988RedT2 wrote: The only people against unions are the people who aren't in a union.

That's not true. I was not only in the UAW/CAW, but I was on the negotiating committee, and a steward, and I was against the union in out plant.

I understand and appreciate your remark. Just to be clear, I'm very much against unions in general.

Me too.

Unions did good things that we all benefit from today, but they are no longer required.

racinginc215 wrote: http://www.freep.com/article/20101009/BUSINESS01/10090322/1319/Ford-UAW-reach-deal-on-plant For those that can read.

Ironic--it's "for those WHO can read"

Anyway, the country needs high-paying manufacturing jobs. Do we want cars that are built by people making retail money???

I can see how their strategy makes sense on paper/in theory, but realistically, it is an important job that should command a decent wage.

Boost- have you ever done a line job?

The way you put it, I seriously doubt it.

Seems easy, and mind numbing- and that's the problem. Consider the tolerance of mistakes- the SUM of all the jobs has to be ~ 10%. Think about how many jobs there are, and then figure each person is allowed probably .1% each to make a mistake. And I figure that is about 1 mistake every other week, depending on the job.

Do that for 8 hours with a few breaks, every day, with overtime.

Line jobs suck.

Especially when you look at how much the guys in the glass towers pull in.

alfadriver wrote: Especially when you look at how much the guys in the glass towers pull in.

'tis the stuff of revolutions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ressentiment

What is the market rate for engineers and doctors if Chinese and Indians and the rest of the world were allowed to emigrate freely to the US?

$15/hr may be the "market rate" for auto jobs currently in the US but worldwide people are willing to work for what, $15 a day?

What is protecting us from that eventuality? Are you happy with those protections?

I feel for the guy.

Suppose your property taxes go up 100 %.

What's the response?

Suck it up, you're lucky to have a house?

Or do you complain and try to bring attention to the problem and try to change it.

Ford made GREAT profits for many, many years all the while paying high wages to people like me.

(11 years on the line, hated it, not worth $28/hr to me, started my own business, much happier, hate union politics, but know unions are way down on the list of the BIG 3's problems).

-James

alfadriver wrote: Boost- have you ever done a line job? The way you put it, I seriously doubt it. Seems easy, and mind numbing- and that's the problem. Consider the tolerance of mistakes- the SUM of all the jobs has to be ~ 10%. Think about how many jobs there are, and then figure each person is allowed probably .1% each to make a mistake. And I figure that is about 1 mistake every other week, depending on the job. Do that for 8 hours with a few breaks, every day, with overtime. Line jobs suck. Especially when you look at how much the guys in the glass towers pull in.

Didn't you read my posts Eric? I did work a line job in a UAW plant, the job drove me nuts because you aren't allowed to think. Case-in-point: My job one day was to install the (gear driven) air compressor. Part of the job is to check the gear lash once it's bolted in. Put a simple electronic gauge on it, wiggle the pulley and giddyup. Will, we were given 8.5 minute allocation for your job, this one took 7 minutes the first time you did it, 3 or 4 after a few shifts. I put the compressor on, it was just a little bit out of spec. I loosened the bolts a little bit, shifted the compressor and tightened it up. Passed! I got REAMED OUT because I fixed it as opposed to the union rat that was the "line repairman." I explained that, being an ASE certified mechanic with lots of experience setting up differentials and such I knew what I was doing (and I had watched the repairman, that's all he did to "fix" it) and they told me they didn't care. I was "taking another man's job, taking food off his table" and such. Oh, I thought I was letting him look at that Playboy magazine a little longer. I could go on and on. But when you are working the line you have to shut your mind off because having and using some brainpower doesn't sit well with them. And the line workers don't have to hit that 90% rate or anything close to that. They slap crap together and the folks in the repair area (not the ignorant "line repairman") will fix it. I've seen balled up knit gloves inside of cylinder bores, plastic caps under valve covers and engines that were bolted up to the dyno with NO pistons at all!

So you had an easy job that you didn't like- one that everyone has to put up with the same crap.

You didn't keep the job for what reason? They didn't pay you enough?

You could have all day to dream about projects that you could do with the money they were paying you....

Ha, Boost I think I got 'ya beat. When I worked for Waste Management we were contacted to take over the trash hauling at our plant. It seems that the truck the plant was using was constantly breaking down. Management had decided that instead of buying a new one and dedicating a worker to it that it was cheaper to contract it out to a third party.

Our driver showed up on the first day and immediately the steward contacts management. They said the same thing - taking a union job away. The answer? The union driver was to ride in the passenger seat of our truck when we were hauling GM loads. We would show up at 6am haul the morning loads for three hours, drop the guy off, go back in the afternoon for another 2 hours of work. In the time that we were offsite he sat in the break room waiting for us to come back (usually 2+ hours). He made $32 an hour to sit there all day while we did all the work. This went on for a couple of years.

The SOX that Hess talked about is Sarbanes-Oxley, a law that mandates lots of nits to be picked concerning records-keeping. About 5 (?) years old by now. Huge amounts of time spent doing nothing more than verifying that records have been taken. And mandating it. I'd've thought the records themselves would provide evidence they were taken, but Nooo!. SOX says you need to verify with a separate record that the record was noted.