Unrestored 1905 house on land as vacation home?

I'm considering financing the purchase of 120 acres of land in PA for hunting and recreation (and speculation that the mineral rights will again be worth something someday) that has a large 1905 ish house and old barn.  Most prospective buyers are probably looking at the property to doze the house and have the land for hunting and timber.   I'm not that buyer.  We already spend time in the area using a relatives' small cottage that works well for them, but not for larger family gatherings.  This house in usable condition would be perfect for larger gatherings, weekend stays, a few week-long stays in the summer.

My question is whether it's nuts to think we could use this house as is for a seasonal property after cleaning, painting, and fixing a few systems, but leaving the plaster, doors, windows, non-insulated siding, etc.  I helped remodel the house I grew up in, a late 1800's farm house.  We removed all of the horse hair plaster and replaced with drywall.  I'm not doing that for a seasonal property.  This house has the most value to me if it can be used with a little elbow grease and a little $.  If it needed major renovations, I'm not a buyer.   There's no question that it's current condition and some rooms filled with personal effects/trash are scaring away buyers.  I can see through that stuff.  OR, I'm wearing rose colored glasses.  I suspect the truth lies in the middle.

Some details - I saw the inside a few weekends ago and expected to be in there 10 minutes, find a disaster, and leave and never think of the place again.  Instead I found a filthy house that had been vacant for a few years, but was winterized and still heated with natural gas to 50 degrees.  I found a foundation that had been updated to block in some areas and poured walls in others with no sign of water intrusion.  In the 15 total rooms, I found one bedroom ceiling that needs to be removed and replaced with drywall.  All other walls are filthy, but have no signs of water damage, cracks, or failing plaster.  The plaster (probably horse hair) appears to be well attached to the presumed lathe behind it.   The floors are mostly original wood, some painted, some stained, with no bounce or significant slant.  Electric is screw in fuses and probably a 60 amp service - adequate for seasonal needs.  The well pump and electric stove are the biggest loads, I'd guess.  The bedrooms had ceiling mounted pull chain lights - again adequate, but upgradeable down the road if desired.  It needs a really, really good cleaning.  I'm thinking with cleaning and new paint, many of the rooms become habitable.  The windows are old glass and wood sashes that are either stained (good and probably usable) or have little flaking paint left (probably stuck but fixable? lead paint abatement for sure).   The kitchen is disgusting and I'd rip out cabinets, remove vinyl floor and see what's underneath, probably install new floor, new cabinets and paint.  I'd run new pex water lines to the kitchen sink (easy, full basement access).  The 1 bath is 50/50 whether to fix for now, or go ahead and remodel (easy access to plumbing).   Siding is 1940s-50s asbestos tile that eventually would be repainted after fixing 20 or so cracked or broken tiles - overall it's in surprisingly good shape.  I'm confident the siding under the tiles is not good wood siding and probably has no type of vapor barrier.   The roof is metal and likely less than 10 years old and seems to be doing its job well.  I saw no signs of rot in the attic, rafters, roof decking boards, etc.  Water is a well and I'd have it tested.  A spring is on the property close to the house that is the headwaters of a trout stream (not sure if trout make it up as far as this property or not, yet).  The heat is strange - a gas forced air furnace had died, and instead of replacing it, they installed 2 large and new gas radiator heat units, like you might see in a school.  The old furnace and ducting is still there.  I don't see asbestos tape on the ducts and wonder if simply installing a new furnace and cleaning the ducts would get me forced air anywhere an existing duct is run.  I speculate they decided to install the radiators because the widow that lived there just needed to use the first floor and not heat the whole house and they got a deal on these units.  

The one big known issue is the septic - they had issues with it and pumping the tank didn't fix them.  Tub drain and sink drain currently are straight pipe to the yard - not going to leave it like that.  The seller would either have to decide to escrow purchase funds and fix it, or tell me to take it as is (I'm not sure in PA in this Township that it would fly, but I'd have to research further.  Also is probably an issue with financing).  I'd even consider a composting toilet if I had a grey water solution that was cheap.  At a minimum, I'd want a septic inspection that actually evaluates its condition and usability/reparability.  I expect the township to at least require a dye test.

 So - is it nuts to think we can use this house more or less as is after cleaning, paint, and a few system fixes?   I lived for 15 years in a house with horse hair plaster and no insulation with no known ill effects - any reason it wouldn't work for an occasional get away?  I'd plan to set the water up to empty easily to avoid freezing pipes, but would consider leaving the heat set at 50 or so, given relatively cheap natural gas prices here and depending on what that would cost over the winter.  

Has anyone one here done something similar?  Anything I'm missing?  All feedback appreciated (even if to say run away because X).

To close, although a very plain house, it has some history to the area, and given the good it has, I'd hate to see it bulldozed and replaced by anything.  It deserves to be saved.  

I can not make the correct judgment from afar but I see two conflicting paraphrased statements:

• ...a place for vacation and recreation 
• ...the place needs a lot of work (even at the most minimum approach)

Depending on the township, that septic situation could be a very big problem. Otherwise, with no signs of water damage or glaring issues, I'm in the go for it camp. A livable getaway is always nice to have if you can afford it.

I like the idea of a "family compound" where people can get together for whatever reason but not be overly cramped up.  The main house sounds fine for that.  Maybe add an outdoor pavilion at some point. 

My vote is to go for it.

I would not trust the old wiring especially if its that old fabric insulation stuff.  I am thinking an update on that including a new box with real breakers.  Besides rotting insulation the rodents have a tendency to gnaw on wire so it probable  has some open spots waiting to cause you trouble.     If you start using the place you probably will quickly overload the old electrical system.     

I would put in Carbon monoxide monitors to verify your heating system is not going to kill you.   

 Septic system could get expensive; probably needs new drain piping, tank and field updated. 

  Other than upgrading/inspecting the two things that can kill you, the electrical system and the gas heat,  you have a place with a good roof that needs a lot of TLC.    

John Welsh said:

I can not make the correct judgment from afar but I see two conflicting paraphrased statements:

• ...a place for vacation and recreation 
• ...the place needs a lot of work (even at the most minimum approach)

I guess it depends on what you like to do for your vacation and recreation  No, seriously. I've discovered that I enjoy spending my vacation building/repairing stuff.

I'd do it. My parents had a cabin when I was a kid and have a cottage now. I grew up ripping out horsehair plaster as well. Sounds like this has the potential to be a cool family center that you can work on/fix up over the years. If it has no structural problems, then you can take your time rehabilitating the house. If you make it a family affair, then that really cements the house as part of the family.

Any vacation house in freeze country has a couple of things to think about whether it's old or not. 

1. Keeping water out. I like a steel roof for this. 
2. Keeping water in - the pipes. This means having a way to drain them in the cold months so they don't explode and remembering to turn the water pump off every time when you leave. 
3. Other moisture. Basements get wet and that can seep up into the upper structures. Without people there opening doors and windows and generally using the place, air gets moist and stagnant and that causes mold. All over the place. I don't have a good solution for this. 
4. Pests. Mice and bats are the obvious ones. You will get them. You will fight them. They will outnumber and outsmart you. Also, human pests. Keeping unwanted people out is a concern. 

Then you get to site specific stuff like septic and wiring and permits necessary to fix things and property taxes on homes that aren't a primary residence and all of that fun stuff. If you can deal with the first four then the rest is just home ownership. 

I love the idea.  A hundred and twenty acres sounds awesome!  What's the land like?  Wooded, sure, but is it low, hilly, or on the side of a mountain?  Is it priced right?  Where do you see the property value in ten years relative to what they're asking?

Years ago, my friend's parents from Jersey bought a place in rural Virginia before they were ready to retire there.  They spent a few weeks a year and the rest of the time it sat vacant.  They had trouble with vandalism and theft.  If the property is going to be vacant for long stretches, you might consider that possibility.  On 120 acres, it's obviously pretty remote.  You could even find squatters take up residence.  It's best if you can check up on the place regularly, or have a trusted neighbor do it for you.

If you're not afraid of it, and have the financial wherewithal to pull it off, I'd say go for it!

How is the wiring? 

I'd get an estimate on the septic. If that is reasonable, go for it.

That's a good point. Our cabin when I was a kid was on 40 acres, and it did see occasional vandalism. The cabin wasn't much so there wasn't much to lose, but we had a campstove or two go missing.

Man, I'd love to go back and check that place out again...

Designing a residential plumbing system that drains to avoid freezing is much harder than it sounds. Plan on keeping the heat running. 

Septic, electric, and heat are your 3 big issues, especially with financing. Financing could also be impacted with it not being a full time primary residence. 

I appreciate the feedback so far, keep it coming.

This house seems ideal to fix a room at a time.  Even a window at a time when we want to make the old windows look better.  I'm thinking about farming out the initial clean up to jump start our access - it would take us 3 weekends ourselves, but a crew in about 2 days could get it ready to paint.  I'd farm out the exterior painting as well.

The wire coming out of the fuse box is metal jacketed wire.  I didn't trace where all it went.  I suspect the wire to the first floor has that newer (50s?  60s?) wire.  The wire for the second floor ceiling lights is 2 wire with a woven cover.  It could be updated by pulling new wire from the basement to the attic, even if I had to make a new chase to do it.  

There's a lot of good facts about this particular property.  It's walking distance to the ground my father in law hunted for the last 60 years.  The widow/seller's brother in law who grew up in this house lives down the road.  He volunteered that he'd be interested in the house 20 years ago, but doesn't have time now for that project.  I briefly discussed with him his interest in helping out with the rehab from time to time and what his rate might be.  He sort of beamed at that suggestion.  I'd want to become good friends with him and he'd keep an eye on the place.  He said there are good neighbors around.  I would also look at surveillance camera options.  The structure of the house would be great for multiple families - 4 bedrooms in one part of upstairs and 3 in a separate part, each with their own set of stairs.  I'd close one section off for now and rehab later.  Probably add a second bath down the road.  It's an hour and 45 minute drive from our house.  Up and back in a day if needed, and ideal for the weekend and long weekend.  My wife and wife's sister are both school teachers and I'd want them and our 2 boys each (4 total) to spend a week up there a few times over the summer.  

The land is on a knob, the highest ground within a mile, but mostly flat overall.  Found a few small wet areas in the woods that could be from all the rain or just a high water table.   30 acres of woods around the house, 10 acres of adjacent old pasture that needs to be brush hogged, then a long strip of 30 acres in tilled acreage I'd keep having farmed (presumably by a neighbor) for deer attraction, and then a back 50 acres of woods, the whole thing being in a U shape with woods and house on the left, woods on the right and tilled land in the middle.  Not an ideal tract but good enough.  I'd love to have the neighbor's ground to fill in that U - that house I am told is circa 1880s and wasn't a modern carve out of the land as I suspected it was when I first saw the plot.  

My gut says the asking price is too high per acre for the area, except everything I see online now up there is much more for less acreage.  It's not in an overly high demand area, but close to areas of higher demand.  Most properties up there are small camps on small plots, some adjacent to public ground.  I was pleased to see the camps in overall good shape (some other areas in the county have camps that have been mostly forgotten). I'd probably want to talk with the widow/seller - he's what we can do re $, here's what we want to do with the house, my boys are 10 and 6 and will inherit the place someday.  Our price isn't what we think your house is worth, but what we're comfortable doing for a second property and to leave us funds to restore it over time.    

The small farm (just a few horses) I grew up on was great to run around on as a kid.  I had other private ground to hunt on that helped me learn and understand how to hunt, with enough game to keep my interest.  We live in the burbs now and get outdoors when we can on public land.  It's good enough, but not the same.  

SVreX - the well pump is in the basement.  The hot water tank is in the basement.  The bathroom is directly overhead on the 1st floor.  The kitchen sink is also on the 1st floor, about 40 feet away.  Water is a well and I expect to have more than enough flow year-round (but would have tested).  I expected I could drain the sink supply lines and bath supply lines to a central point in the basement and then out to the yard.  I suppose I'd have to empty the hot water tank as well.  I guess the last issue is "winterizing" the toilet?  Have I missed anything?  Will P traps in the drains cause an issue?

Just a warning--this can be come an obsessive full time job. My parents bought a place that was built in the 60's, updated in the 80's, and severely neglected in teh 2000's. They closed in September 2016. April 2017 they were done with the roof, septic, kitchen, bathrooms, floors, insulation, water heater/boiler, furnace, etc. 

It is now January 2019. My dad just texted me talking about how to check the sump pump, and how he is currently glazing the windows. They farmed out just about everything, but he's still putting in about 20 hours a week on improvements himself. The other 20 hours are him taking care of the property. 

Now, none of this is necessary anymore. Pay a guy $100 a month to cut the grass, shovel the snow, etc., but when you're there you'll see little projects around the house and want to do them. If you love that, great! If not, and you can ignore it, great! If you don't love it but can't ignore it, it becomes a pain. Little things like a faucet that leaks at the base when you turn it on. It is a 20 minute job to replace the wax seal, but that 20 minutes is really 60 cause you need to go back to town for the seal itself. It all adds up. For my dad, it is great. For me, I could either ignore it or just build a list and do them all in a day. FOr someone who doesn' tlike this stuff, but can't ignore it... Well, be warned.

In reply to klb67 :

Pressurized lines ALWAYS have sags or vertical offsets. Non-pressurized lines have water seals and traps, as well as vents which prevent you from being able to blow them out with compressed air. 

Even if you reran every pipe in the house with intent for it to gravity drain, you would still have vacuum seals where you didn’t expect them. 

Then there will be jets, nozzles, and orifices in valves and well pumps which are constricted and exposed and easy to freeze.

I’m  not saying it can’t be done, I’m just saying it never quite works out the way you expect. 

In reply to klb67 :

If it’s going to be mortgaged a lot of things will need to be fixed in order to get it approved. ( I’m going through the process right now). 

You might try to see if the land value will carry the mortgage but I tried and even though my land value alone is more than twice the mortgage amount they wouldn’t approve the loan.  They looked for anything on the house  that wouldn’t meet current mortgage standards  and required those to come up to code before a mortgage would be granted. 

There was a lot of back and forth about the dock, it’s pulled for the winter but it looked like construction stored under the portico in the pictures. 

Its stupid the things they asked about, nit picky stuff but I eventually did exactly what they asked and had the appraiser come out and retake pictures.  As soon as the loan goes through I’m ripping that cra- out and finishing it properly. 

frenchy just beat me to it.  I say great idea but good luck getting financing unless the owner will do it. 

I live full time in an unrestored 1910 house, horsehair plaster walls and all. I love all the hardwood and styling. It does have newer insulation and siding. When we moved in my father in law rewired it, and we have had to do some plumbing but other then some damage caused by my children its held up amazingly well. For part time use I wouldn't hesitate at all. 

And it was really hard too beat 2k sq ft plus basement for 43k

to the OP, i know that you know to ask, but just a reminder that the deed doesn't always include mineral rights.  somehow my family owns mineral rights on a family farm near Pittsburgh, but the farm itself was sold years ago and is no longer owned by my family.   i'd be berkeleying pissed if i was the current landowner and found out how much $$$ i missed out on when the mineral rights holders leased their mineral rights to the frackers.

1988RedT2 said:

I love the idea.  A hundred and twenty acres sounds awesome!  What's the land like?  Wooded, sure, but is it low, hilly, or on the side of a mountain?  Is it priced right?  Where do you see the property value in ten years relative to what they're asking?

Years ago, my friend's parents from Jersey bought a place in rural Virginia before they were ready to retire there.  They spent a few weeks a year and the rest of the time it sat vacant.  They had trouble with vandalism and theft.  If the property is going to be vacant for long stretches, you might consider that possibility.  On 120 acres, it's obviously pretty remote.  You could even find squatters take up residence.  It's best if you can check up on the place regularly, or have a trusted neighbor do it for you.

If you're not afraid of it, and have the financial wherewithal to pull it off, I'd say go for it!

I have a friend with the same deal. He keeps a oldish car there and has a random series of lights and radio/TV  come on in the house and garage.  Not only do lights go on with the motion detector it turns on a barking dog/ owner calling the dog sound track.  ( all done on a junk old computer)

 Plus all summer a local kid mows the lawn in the winter he plows the driveway and shovels the walk. 

It's not too hard to winterize a house. P-traps and toilets are easy with RV antifreze. Drain the hot water tank. RV antifreeze in the washer too if you have one. You'll need add/modify stuff to make it drain well if you're not doing if from scratch. The good news is that we live in the future and PEX is pretty freeze tolerant if you don't do it perfectly. On my cottage I have to open seven valves and every faucet to get things drained. It took five winters of 1-2 busted copper pipes a year until I got all of the bugs out and this was in a place that had been winterized every year for the 20 before I bought it. 

With the proper tools you should be able to re-plumb the whole thing with PEX in a weekend. I love that stuff. 

Thanks SVreX.

Financing would probably be through AgChoice.  I looked into various USDA programs for financing farms and it looks like you need to occupy and farm the property yourself - can't lease it out to farm.  Banks all would have needed us to use our home equity, which I don't want to do beyond getting the rest we need for the down payment.  I think the land will apprise for what we'd offer.  Might not for the asking price.  If AgChoice needs the house up to code, it's definitely a no-go.  

The place definitely is calling me. But we aren't jumping into this without full family buy-in.  Wife has looked at pics and discussed points here and there, hasn't said no, and agreed that spending money on the initial clean out would be better than doing it ourselves.  But I'll need a firm "yes, let's do this" before we start talking offers, applying for financing, and scheduling inspections, etc.  It's hard to argue with the observation that we don't really make time to keep our primary residence very orderly, so how would we keep up with a second property?  I'm usually the common sense, logical thinker.  Not this time...

Seth - that's the kind of boundless optimism/truth I expect to see around here for such ridiculous dreams...Thanks.

I see you’re in Pittsburgh. If you buy this property would you be willing to be my new best friend? 

This seems like a complete cost evaluation to me. 

I'd look at it like this: The value of the land is X. That is really what you're buying. The land happens to have an old house on it that may keep the rain off, but will be a HUGE money sink to get right.

If the price is right for the land purchase and you can swing it without overextending yourself in any way, do it.

In reply to Scottah :

Are you in the HVAC, plumbing, or painting trades?  Install home security and surveillance systems?  Have a free tractor, mower, and brush hog that you need rid off?  Or just a big old bag of money you don't need anymore?  Then sure.  :)

There is a strong I need a new project urge that I recognize.  I have to decide if it just needs to pass without action (most times it does).  Other times, I buy an old sailboat.   Another old sailboat might make more sense than this.  Except when I tick off all of the plusses for this property, this seller, this location, this specific house.   It gets much easier to justify. 

Brett - that's really the question.  If the house is a huge money sink to get right, I'm out.   It just doesn't make sense for us to dump a bunch more money into a second property.  But in my evaluation so far, it would be very usable with very specific and manageable expenditures (the one big exception is the septic that the seller may have to fix).  I know from experience you don't really repair horse hair plaster.  If there's a piece coming off, it's all coming off, unless you use a few techniques to re-attach it.   But it's just better to rip it down and install drywall.  I have no interest in signing up for that project on a second property, either to do myself or pay to have done.  No interest in re-roofing the place.   Or buying and installing all new windows. Old and functional (with some mindfulness of safety - see wiring) is fine with me.  The real issue is can a/this 1905 house be old and functional, or is it really a money pit I can't see.