Value of an MBA (or other professional degrees)

So, what's the GRM braintrust's opinion on the value of an MBA? The other thread got me to thinking about this and a friend also asked me about MBA vs MSM, but I didn't even know what an MSM was. Evidently it's a Master's of Science in Management.

This whole thing got me to thinking about the value of higher level degrees, in general. Does a PhD lock you out of opportunities? Does a MS in Chemistry tell chemists that you couldn't make it to a PhD? It seems to me that a MS in a scientific or engineering field isn't worth as much as the work experience you could obtain in that time.

Opinions?

I've known quite a few MSE's (Master's of Science in Engineering) and they ended up in management positions. Bean counters.

One of my closest friends had a BS in Economics. Just about useless. Went for his MBA and has had pretty good luck with it. Went to a value-oriented program, got scholarships and assistance-ships, and did a work-study program that developed into a decent per-diem job. Good pay, works 40 hours a week, just no benefits. Not permanent either.

Thing is, if you go to school for something that's in demand, you shouldn't need the masters. If you go to school for something that isn't in demand, the graduate program is the only way to distinguish yourself from the rest.

EDIT:

Funny that I'm the first reply in this thread considering the other thread I was interested in the Trades without education. I'll say this though, I wasn't sure I wanted to go to college, tried it, did horrible, took two years off, went back, did excellent, got an Associates, continued to get a Bachelors. It's definitely been worth it. It's difficult to get a "Professional" job without a college degree, but that doesn't mean a white-collar job will make you happy either.

If you love what you do, but the pay or positions are limited by the degree, then get more education.

Don't get more education because you think it'll make getting a job easier. You might not like the job.

Good to question the value of whatever you are doing.

I got an engineering MS, but has a specific reason to get it- I wanted into a specific industry, and they were not hiring from the school that I got my BS from. So I chose to try got get an MS from some very specifc schools that I knew from industry publications were heavily recruited from.

it worked.

Do note- depending on the degree- work may be more or less. I was able to go through a very specific set up, where I was a TA as opposed to an RA, and was not forced to do a thesis- so it was just classes that earned me the MS. It was like spending an extra 1 1/2 years in school- no big deal. EDIT- one also must bake in finacial support- are YOU paying for it, or will the school/someone else. It's one thing to spend extra time in school, it's another to pay for it.

Note #2- some places will start you at a higher pay grade with an MS, and then higher still with a PhD. And I've seen that some areas lock you out of specific opportunities WITHOUT a PhD. Whether you want those opportunities is up to you.

Note #3. MBA, MSM, etc- fast track to management. If you want to run that path. Not sure if the schooling is all that helpful in being a mangement type, but it makes the path much broader.

MBAs matter when they are from: Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Northwestern, Princeton, Dartmouth, and maybe another 1/2 dozen schools in the US where the avg starting salary is over 100k. Outside of those, an MBA might give you a very slight edge, competing for a job, but won't really earn you significantly more. A Ph.D. from a decent school will open more doors than close them, but it's a different path than traditional employer/employee relationships unless you plan on teaching. In a literal sense - it's the couple of extra years of schooling and training is difference between a nurse and a doctor. Some specialty Master's will be more helpful than others - healthcare comes to mind.

Not sure how relevant this is, but a good friend has a PHD in geology, was department head at University of Wisconsin, then spent the next 30 years as a pilot. Now, at 73yo, he is a helicopter pilot instructor. Guess he kind of burned out in classes. Still a teacher, just at altitude.

My MBA opened a lot of doors for me that previoiusly would have been closed, as I had an Industrial Technology degree from a MAC school. Basically an engineering degree without the math. So, not all that prestigious. Getting an MBA from a top-10 school (Michigan) was a huge upgrade and allowed me to get the job I have now. Having said that, I never would have done it if my previous employer hadn't paid for it, because it was crazy expensive.

I don't know that I'd get an MBA right out of school. If you're already in industry, you'll probably have a better idea of if it's worth it for you. (and if your employer will pay)

If you are (and are in an engineering related field? Maybe I'm getting posts confused), you'll find the big emphasis will be on "program management" (PMP) type stuff. That can get you more, well, project management type jobs than strictly technical engineering.

What do you want to do with it?

cwh wrote: ...department head at University of Wisconsin, then spent the next 30 years as a pilot...Guess he kind of burned out in classes.

What you enjoy learning about vs what you enjoy spending your time doing.

I've got many interests, like anything in a machine shop, but I'm not sure I'd want to that for the rest of my life.

Same with applied or foreign intelligence. Really interesting field of data gather and figuring out wow people and government act the way they do. It's a job that either is as glamorous as the movies make it out to be, or a life of report writing and cubicles.

oldtin wrote: MBAs matter when they are from: Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Northwestern, Princeton, Dartmouth, and maybe another 1/2 dozen schools in the US where the avg starting salary is over 100k. Outside of those, an MBA might give you a very slight edge, competing for a job, but won't really earn you significantly more.

I have to disagree with this, based on experience trying to find a job and insights from caddying for various successful business people and my dad. An MBA is entirely worth it IF you want to get into management, and often required. And, if you can get into a company that will pay for it, there is no reason not to do it.

FWIW... I know people with MBA's from NIU, DeVry, Robert Morris, Lake Forest College... All of them are in VP/President/Director positions at companies such as Baxter, Cardinal Health, Hewitt/Aon, Abbott...

Right now I am debating going straight back for a MS in Engineering.

I got my bachelors in engineering last May from a small college that, while ME and EE give you a degree that reads University of MD College Park, I graduated as a part of new program (I was one of the first five) that reads from the small college. (though 90% of my classes were the same).

Having no luck with job hunting, I am worried that it is linked with the college I graduated from. I am just not sure if I really want to get back in school right now. I have also been debating going back for an MBA right now, but have decided that is better for later as it would be easier to do night classes in while working a job.

PHeller wrote: or a life of report writing and cubicles.

99.9% of intel wienies not only work in cubicles, but windowless rooms, too.

Apexcarver wrote: Right now I am debating going straight back for a MS in Engineering. I got my bachelors in engineering last May from a small college that, while ME and EE give you a degree that reads University of MD College Park, I graduated as a part of new program (I was one of the first five) that reads from the small college. (though 90% of my classes were the same). Having no luck with job hunting, I am worried that it is linked with the college I graduated from. I am just not sure if I really want to get back in school right now. I have also been debating going back for an MBA right now, but have decided that is better for later as it would be easier to do night classes in while working a job.

A good question to ask- can you find an MS program that you don't spend your own cash for? Most schools won't bat an eye at where your degree is from, if you have good grades and other filters. So you should be able to get into some masters programs and have them pay for it with some kind of work exchange (teaching or research).

If that's what it takes to get a job, that's what it takes...

mtn wrote: I have to disagree with this, based on experience trying to find a job and insights from caddying for various successful business people and my dad. An MBA is entirely worth it IF you want to get into management, and often required. And, if you can get into a company that will pay for it, there is no reason not to do it. FWIW... I know people with MBA's from NIU, DeVry, Robert Morris, Lake Forest College... All of them are in VP/President/Director positions at companies such as Baxter, Cardinal Health, Hewitt/Aon, Abbott...

I don't dismiss MBAs from state universities or other types (I have one from the University of Texas, along with a Master's of Healthcare Administration...). It is helpful for that competitive edge - although my degrees came after the business titles got made since the company was paying - and will get you up there for the 100 - 200k gigs, but the people I know who have grad degrees from elite schools earn multiples of the MBAs from state/local schools - my point would be that if you are going to invest in the cost of the education, the best ROI comes from a smallish core group of schools. A MS in Engineering from MIT is going to be worth more than an MS in Engineering from Kansas State.

All my friends that have MBA's are doing well.

My friend that has a Master's in Electrical Engineering and works at the big electonics company that rhymes with Botorola is doing very well. Of course he has almost 30 years with them and has missed the mass layoff sword every 18 months.

My employer for the last 12 years could care less if I had an associates.......

I'm starting to wonder about this myself...

Seems i've hit a wall in my company, and can't get to move up without that piece of paper, despite having trained people that get the very jobs i apply for. (I'm guessing because they have the paper?)

I'm a few months away from getting my MBA in Management from a small, private college. I paid for it all on my dime because my employer doesn't pay anything. I have just started job searching and have been getting very positive feedback. Of course, I also have 20 years of management experience at all sorts of companies and owned my own Sub S corp a while back. I think that the MBA is more of a validation of my previous experience than anything.

I also think that my MBA is worth more than the same one earned by a 22 year kid at my school who got their MBA only because they couldn't find a job after finishing their undergrad degree and figured that they'd just stay in school and rack up some more loans.

MBA has more 'prestige', in general. The MSM program I took was half the credits of an MBA - sort of like an MBA-lite. The curriculum was lighter on accounting and finance, and focused more on real-world entrepreneurial development, innovation, and organizational dynamics.

It was my choice because I am an engineer, and I don't intend to be a pure management type at any time. I have my MS in Electrical Engineering, an MS in Engineering Science, and I figured the MS Management would make me well-rounded without getting bogged down with a bunch of drudgery.

rotard wrote: This whole thing got me to thinking about the value of higher level degrees, in general. Does a PhD lock you out of opportunities? Does a MS in Chemistry tell chemists that you couldn't make it to a PhD? It seems to me that a MS in a scientific or engineering field isn't worth as much as the work experience you could obtain in that time. Opinions?

While two years of work is a lot more lucrative than being a student for two years, I would guess that the access to employers and information is exponentially higher to students than simply employees. From what I have experienced, companies love explaining their operations to students. They will tell you a heck of a lot more than they will tell a competitor.

And a graduate degree doesn't necessarily mean student debt--In my program (horticultural sciences), all graduate students have their classes paid for and are provided a stipend to live on. The catch is that students must be good researchers and provide an ROI--They have to show that the research that they are conducting is worth publishing. Poor quality research results in a lack of publishable material, which means no funding.

An MS isn't just a PhD for slackers. It is an introduction into a research-oriented curriculum. True, some people go straight into a PhD, but it's much more difficult, because there is a lot less guidance at the PhD level (students are expected to know what they are doing at that point), research projects last much longer, and it's a long row to hoe if the student hates the lab they are working in after the first year, with three or more years remaining, rather than just one more for an MS degree.

Not to thread-jack here, but I am in the midst of applying for the MBA at Gonzaga. All I have left to do is take the GMAT -- anyone have opinions on the best way to prep for it? I'm always a good test-taker, just need some prep since it's been 4 years since I was last in school.

Get a tutor that specifically helps with the GMAT. You'll do fine.

BTW, I had my Graduate Hooding this past weekend. It was incredibly satisfying to be recognized for two years of intense work to get my MBA. I feel really good about myself and hope to move on to a much better job. I went to a job fair a few days before graduation and every recruiter that I talked to was very impressed.

Depends entirely on the field. Important in some, trivial in others.

The last 3 of you are missing the canoe. The thread is 3 months old, and was revived by someone trying to sell an advanced degree program.

Canoe city.

^^^ Thanks, alphadriver. I just deleted the user. They apparently had launched a flotilla...spamming five other threads on the forum...Feel free to send me a PM if you spot canoes.

oldtin wrote: MBAs matter when they are from: Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Northwestern, Princeton, Dartmouth, and maybe another 1/2 dozen schools in the US where the avg starting salary is over 100k. Outside of those, an MBA might give you a very slight edge, competing for a job, but won't really earn you significantly more.

This nails it. Every two-bit university has a night or weekend MBA program now. The degree has been devalued to the point of nearly worthlessness, unless you go to a top tier school that makes you sit in a classroom full time for two years.

Canoe