Volt out of production

I can't believe I am saying this, but you people have me thinking I need to lease a Volt.

In like 12 minutes, I'll be back to thinking I need a 240Z or a Boxster S, but still...

A pretty good exerpt from another forum I frequent...

From this thread on said other forum...

Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money)

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors. For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time)would be 20 mph. According to General Motors, the Volt battery hold 16 kwh of electricity.It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity. I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons)$1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile. The gasoline powered car cost about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000. So our government wants us to pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more than 7 time as much to run and takes 3 times as long to drive across country.

Retort on same forum from a VERY well educated engineer/machinist who has built his own from-the-stripped-S10-frame-up all electric vehicle in his garage, including the charging bits and electronic controlers...

Really REALLY smart guy said: Interesting. I'm pretty sure your $1.16/kwh is off by about an order of magnitude. I get about $0.07/kWh (coal is cheap); other areas of the country can go as high as $0.20 to $0.30, but not over $1! I think the other figures are maybe a little misleading too. I'm not too surprised at the 30 MPG; that's significantly lower than it's supposed to be, but gas mileage can vary a *lot* depending on driving style. In my 2010 Corolla, compare my 42 MPG interstate/30-32 city (though I've been getting more like 28-30 city with the switch to higher-ethanol gasoline--hypermiling techniques can only go so far) with my dad's 35 interstate/25-28 city. Same car, same fuel, same roads, same weather, no difference except the driving style. 35/26 is what the EPA says it is (and that's also about what you get if you use the cruise control to go up hills), which is probably a good median. A real lead-foot will get maybe 25% worse than that. With the Volt, the EPA official range is 35 miles on a full charge, after which the gasoline engine will kick in (making it a plug-in hybrid, NOT a full BEV, despite the protestations of GM's marketing department...but I'm arguing semantics here) and extend the range until it runs out of gas. Keep it full of gas and you can drive it across the country, and it'll charge the battery while the engine is running (though I don't know how far you'd have to drive on gasoline, with normal use, to fully charge it). Officially the EPA mileage in gas mode is 40/35 (source), fairly good for a small car. Compare to the Cruze Eco (the Cruze is the base chassis for the Volt) at 42/28 (source). It doesn't have the benefit of a hybrid powertrain, hence the lower city mileage, but it's also not carrying around a battery and electric motor. For that matter, if you took the generator out of a Volt, the all-electric range would jump noticeably (I figure around 10-15%) due to the weight savings. So, while I'm not going to argue that they got lower mileage/range than the EPA figures, I'd assert that they *could have* done better if they were driving differently. And I don't agree with their assessment of "trip time" including charging time, because you don't have to charge the battery to continue running on gasoline, and when you are in a situation to charge the battery, you're probably going to go to bed while it charges overnight or do other stuff instead of sitting around watching it. And the 240V charge time is 4 hours, not 10, which comes from plugging it into a normal 120V outlet. *** Now that I've defended the Volt somewhat, I'm going to say that your original point is still more or less valid. The problem with the Volt is that, at almost $40,000 gross ($31,645 MSRP after federal tax credit), it's simply too expensive. A base model Cruze Eco is $16,800. That leaves you with almost $15,000 to make up in cost savings (probably more than $15,000 by the time you pay the additional sales tax and finance charges). Let's be really generous and say you only ever drove the Volt on battery, and got the EPA-claimed $1.08/25mi. The Cruze Eco gets $2.82/25 mi, again EPA. At 15kmi/yr (going by the EPA "average"--I drive probably half that, but anyway...) there's a savings of $1044/yr. Your break-even point is 14.4 years, or 216,000 miles, away. By which point your battery is going to be needing replacement or already replaced (somewhere between $8000 and $12,000 for the battery is my estimate, I have no clue what GM would charge if they did the replacement), even by the most optimistic projections of battery life. And if you take the tax credit out of the equation, the math looks even worse. --- On a slightly different subject: In no way is it "green" to replace a perfectly functional, efficient gasoline-burning car with a brand new hybrid. You have to count the lifecycle costs of the car--what it cost to produce, and so on. Hybrid technology is really good at in-city efficiency, so there's a niche (somebody that commutes 2 hours a day in heavy metro traffic) where it makes sense. Just like there's a niche (secondary or tertiary commuter car, relatively short-range) for BEVs. Forcing them to do things outside their niche is not efficient. If you drive 2000 miles a week and most of it's highway, you should be looking for an efficient diesel car. (No BEV on earth can do that, and a hybrid is just lugging around a bunch of dead weight because it's not using its electric system at all on the interstate.) If your current vehicle gets 30 MPG highway and there's nothing substantially wrong with it, you shouldn't be looking to buy any kind of car. If you want to improve that figure (FYI this goes for everyone, ESPECIALLY hybrid owners), beyond making sure your engine is in good running order, you can look at learning to hypermile (changing your driving habits), and after that looking at making aerodynamic modifications. Just look at the incredible results this guy got. Both of these are low-cost, high-return options. For an EV conversion like I did, the payback period is longer, but unlike the Volt, it actually does exist (well, not so much if I calculated all the labor I have in it, but I wanted to do that. If I had hired a professional to do it, at about $12,500 plus the cost of the donor vehicle, I'd still get my payback, or at least a break-even, given the relatively crappy gas mileage the truck had to start with.) My EV is still being driven about 10 miles a day as a commuter car, which is exactly what it's intended for. I'll have a better idea of the actual long-term cost of ownership once I've replaced a battery pack. Still on the first pack now--so far so good. Propane and CNG are both alternative fuels to substitute for gasoline or diesel fuel. Natural gas has the advantage of being relatively plentiful domestically (though the politicians don't want us to drill for it), and it's relatively cheap (circa $2000) to convert a diesel-cycle long-haul truck to CNG. In pollution terms, that's like removing two Hummers, or six or seven Corollas, from the road for every converted semi truck.

In reply to 4cylndrfury:

Wow, some reporter used a $1.16 kwh figure? I thought they only made stuff up that people could check ON THEIR OWN BILL EVERY MONTH.

I pay around 7 cents.

By the way, I love the idea of an electric car for operating costs, and I love the idea of a range extender, but it isn't worth it at that buy-in.

I can buy two and a half Elantras for the Buy In.

My experience is an average MPG of 40 mpg.

aussiesmg wrote: I can buy two and a half Elantras for the Buy In. My experience is an average MPG of 40 mpg.

I agree on the buy in. But what about the lease?

So far since May I have 54K on the Elantra, imagine the lease, hell no

The electric mileage is practically useless for me anyway, I would be using 200+ miles a day of fuel.

People apparently buy Fiskers.

Apparently not. Don't you guys watch the news?

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fisker-automotive-announced-layoffs/story?id=15524021

More of your money in the E36 M3ter for the anti-capititalist, never had a real job, never written a paycheck in his life, community organizer's "green" utopia.

In reply to aussiesmg:

Good grief. May of what year?

We have a Fisker dealership in Huntsville. They are ugly cars.

2011, yeah I get a few miles a day under my belt.

aussiesmg wrote: So far since May I have 54K on the Elantra, imagine the lease, hell no The electric mileage is practically useless for me anyway, I would be using 200+ miles a day of fuel.

Right, it doesn't make sense for all people of course. Our commute is MUCH less than that and our current DD is a 2003 Mustang Mach 1, so we are averaging around 20MPG as it is. If we didn't commute together I'd ride a motorcycle every day except when there is snow. That's what I did when I was single. That isn't the case now, and our Mach 1 has been our DD for almost 3 years now, so I'm taking a look at othe options.

New tech always costs more. That's how it becomes new tech. We pay for the costs of developing it. The Prius may be making a per car profit NOW, but it STILL hasn't paid back it's development costs. Toyota can afford that, GM could not. So, unlike the Prius, you have to pay the costs amortized per unit. Again, the new Prius plug-in hybrid is not as advanced as the Volt and it'll end up costing damn near the same buy-in, because that's what the tech costs!

Kind of like how smart phones cost so much to start with and now cost less. Kind of like how big screen plasma TVs cost more and now cost less. Kind of like how my old Pentium III workstation cost almost 5 grand when I bought it back in '98, but a workstation with vastly more power can now be had for under a grand. New tech costs money and early adopters are the ones footing the bill. If they did't the tech cannot come down in price, so if you want the tech at a lower price, you need to encourage people to buy it now.

You don't buy a new car to save money, you buy a new car becaeu you want a new car. If youre going to buy a new car anyhow, then you prioritize teh things that you need, and if better fuel costs after teh purchase are a big deal, then a car like teh Volt is a perfect alternative to a slightly cheaper gas car that will use more fuel for your day to day use.

The average person only drives 30 miles a day. Proven fact. If you drive more than that, you might want a different car. Just like we don't require a Miata to be able to tow a 4 horse trailer, or an F250 to be a good autocrosser, you buy the right tool for the job, and the fact is, that the Volt, plug in Prius, and Leaf are more than adequate for vastly more people than the manufacturers can even build them for. Even if only 1% of the current automotive fleet could be replaced by Volts, that's STILL 2,000,000 cars. GM can't MAKE 2 million Volts. So why can't they sell the ones they do make? Because of fear mongering and outright misrepresentation in the press and on forums like this, by people that really don't have a clue, and should know better.

Look at the Elantra then. 40 mpg, no problems so far, 54K, still fully covered under warranty, $17K buy in, more headroom, legroom and I can and have fit a wheelchair into the trunk.

Not seeing much reason to go with the $35K+ option

Chris_V wrote: You don't buy a new car to save money, you buy a new car becaeu you want a new car. If youre going to buy a new car anyhow, then you prioritize teh things that you need, and if better fuel costs after teh purchase are a big deal, then a car like teh Volt is a perfect alternative to a slightly cheaper gas car that will use more fuel for your day to day use.

100% wrong in my case, by buying my Elantra it saved me $350 more than the repayment on fuel alone at $4.00 per gallon, which was the price at the time of purchase, however even at $2.50 a gallon I was still ahead financially.

I very carefully worked out that my new car would cost me less.

Osterkraut wrote:

ReverendDexter wrote: At $40k, it better be comparable to a Lexus ES/IS, BMW 3-series, CTS, etc.

The phaqu? You've mostly listed luxury-sport cars. Are you going to complain a $40,000 F-250 isn't comparable to a 3-series next?

I just pulled the first batch of $40k mid-sized sedans that came into my head. Can you name non-hybrid sedans that MSRP for ~$40k and are more appropriate for comparison?

Otto Maddox wrote: I can't believe I am saying this, but you people have me thinking I need to lease a Volt. In like 12 minutes, I'll be back to thinking I need a 240Z or a Boxster S, but still...

lol same

poopshovel wrote:

People apparently buy Fiskers.

Apparently not. Don't you guys watch the news? http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fisker-automotive-announced-layoffs/story?id=15524021 More of your money in the E36 M3ter for the anti-capititalist, never had a real job, never written a paycheck in his life, community organizer's "green" utopia.

You are misinformed. Henrik Fisker worked for BMW and a few others, I think.

ReverendDexter wrote:

Osterkraut wrote:

ReverendDexter wrote: At $40k, it better be comparable to a Lexus ES/IS, BMW 3-series, CTS, etc.

The phaqu? You've mostly listed luxury-sport cars. Are you going to complain a $40,000 F-250 isn't comparable to a 3-series next?

I just pulled the first batch of $40k mid-sized sedans that came into my head. Can you name non-hybrid sedans that MSRP for ~$40k and are more appropriate for comparison?

There aren't any. People shopping for a Volt aren't shopping for a car, they're shopping for a technology, one that only the Volt can currently offer. Now, that's a huge problem for the Volt, as it limits the Volt to buyers that will pay for that technology, and as mentioned earlier a lot of these people don't want the stigma attached to the Volt.

Otto Maddox wrote:

poopshovel wrote:

People apparently buy Fiskers.

Apparently not. Don't you guys watch the news? http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fisker-automotive-announced-layoffs/story?id=15524021 More of your money in the E36 M3ter for the anti-capititalist, never had a real job, never written a paycheck in his life, community organizer's "green" utopia.

You are misinformed. Henrik Fisker worked for BMW and a few others, I think.

(He means Obama).

aussiesmg wrote: Look at the Elantra then. 40 mpg, no problems so far, 54K, still fully covered under warranty, $17K buy in, more headroom, legroom and I can and have fit a wheelchair into the trunk. Not seeing much reason to go with the $35K+ option

I'll be honest with you. In my opinion the Elantra is fugly....that's just kills it for me. It's cool you like it and the car is perfect for you with how many miles you drive, but it's not for me. On the other hand I think the Volt is a damn good looking car and with a lease and our commute could really make sense.

In reply to Osterkraut:

Hmm. Seems kind of obvious now. Sometimes I get confused and talk about cars instead of politics.

Cotton wrote:

aussiesmg wrote: Look at the Elantra then. 40 mpg, no problems so far, 54K, still fully covered under warranty, $17K buy in, more headroom, legroom and I can and have fit a wheelchair into the trunk. Not seeing much reason to go with the $35K+ option

I'll be honest with you. In my opinion the Elantra is fugly....that's just kills it for me. It's cool you like it and the car is perfect for you with how many miles you drive, but it's not for me. On the other hand I think the Violt is a damn good looking car and with a lease and our commute could really make sense.

The newest Elantra? I like the way it looks. I like the Volt too.

aussiesmg wrote:

Chris_V wrote: You don't buy a new car to save money, you buy a new car becaeu you want a new car. If youre going to buy a new car anyhow, then you prioritize teh things that you need, and if better fuel costs after teh purchase are a big deal, then a car like teh Volt is a perfect alternative to a slightly cheaper gas car that will use more fuel for your day to day use.

100% wrong in my case, by buying my Elantra it saved me $350 more than the repayment on fuel alone at $4.00 per gallon, which was the price at the time of purchase, however even at $2.50 a gallon I was still ahead financially. I very carefully worked out that my new car would cost me less.

Your elantra cost more than a $500 Geo Metro, and even with repairs, the Geo woudl be a better choice economically. Your Elantra cost more than my Mustang, and is less fun, especially since you can't put the top down. Therefor, your Elantra sucks as a car choice for anyone. Why spend more money to get less, right? Same kind of logic. No, you bought a new Elantra because you wanted a new Elantra. Not because it's THE most financially wise/fun/whatever choice.

We can go round on it all you want, but the fact is, we don't expect any other kind of car to be 100% perfect for 100% of possible buyers, yet you expect that from a car like the Volt. Ludicrous and hypocritical.

No you are still wrong, first it is not more expensive than a Mustang, $16,500 out the door taxes paid for a brand new Elantra with stick. Second a Geo and a Mustang is useless with out the back doors and headroom I need.

A $500 Geo would not be reliable enough for my useage.

Neither can compare on cost to run BTW.

My Elantra did save me money, no other car fits my needs better for the $, therefore I chose it to save $.

I compared a 4 door econo car with a 4 door econo car.

I didn't talk about anybody else's choice, just my circumstances. In my case the Volt is useless.

Your response is illogical and has no bearing