In reply to SV reX :
Apologies, I'm touchy right now with this situation.
In reply to SV reX :
Apologies, I'm touchy right now with this situation.
In reply to mtn :
If you're reading that as condescending, you're reading that on your own head, as it was just a question of was the risk worth the reward?
You said job hopping was a way to get more pay, all I said is the risk is future employers might see that as a red flag, and the reward needs to be worth it. you've said it was worth it, so that's a good thing, and only you can decide if it was in the long run.
You can't complain it's hard to find a job because you're seen as a job hopper, when you are in fact, strategically hopping jobs. Another employer here said he'd pass on you for the same reason, was he being a "condescending dick" too?
SV reX said:According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the median length of employment is 4.1 years.
But that varies significantly by age group:
- Millennials: 2 years and 9 months,
- Gen-Xers: 5 years and 2 months
- Baby boomers: 8 years and 3 months
- Gen-Z: 2 years and 3 months.
Averaging 2 years at each job for 12 years is pretty short.
The perception may be that it's the only way to keep salary up, but that may not be accurate long term. Especially when you include the lost salary between jobs.
That's interesting. I was thinking that possibly the length of a career is a factor - if you're more likely to move around at the beginning of your career than later. Of course Gen X is in a different stage of their careers than Gen Z. If you'd checked my median length of employment when I was at the age of an "old" Gen Z, it would be under a year. One jump was for an opportunity, one was because the company was sold and they wanted me to move to Seattle, one was because a massive multinational collapsed under me. The next jump was into a very different industry and was an offer based on an existing relationship so my past didn't matter.
We tend to retain employees for a very long time at our shop. I think the average is right around a decade at this point. So "will they stay" is a very important question for us, because we want to hire for the long run. It's also important to remember that there's a non-trivial cost for a business to find and hire a new employee, never mind training and onboarding.
In reply to mtn :
All good. I'm sorry you're having a hard time with your job search.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
I hate to break this to you but you may have to stoop a bit to get things on track.
If I had zero bucks and no job and had to get cash somehow. I'd be finding a cheap to free lawnmower to put my ass to work.
I accumulated all my tools while working for someone else. It's an insurance policy so that I don't have to eat cat food if I lose my job. Everyone should have a plan B, C, D....
But hey, all I've got is a high-school diploma so, strong back and weak mind I guess.
If you're trying for a warehouse job. Don't put your degrees on your resume.
I'd round-file it because I know you'll leave as soon as something better comes along.
Why not go back to school and learn a trade? Trade school is reasonable, get a loan, become a sparky.
You don't have to be a journeyman grunt forever. If you're competent and you move up, you end up with a cushy office job.
Every trade is screaming for guys right now.
Pull and terminate low voltage cable in buildings. Access control systems. Security systems. Sort software interfaces between elevators and access control and security. Around here that pays pretty well and they can't find people to do it.
In reply to ShawnG :
Not sure how it works in Canada, but in the US you don't need school. If you've got a High School diploma, you walk into the union hall and sign up. That's it.
In reply to SV reX :
My buddy started out as an apprentice floor layer when we got out of school.
He ended up being union rep and he's teaching now. No more grunt work and a fat union pension and benefits.
SV reX said:According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the median length of employment is 4.1 years.
But that varies significantly by age group:
- Millennials: 2 years and 9 months,
- Gen-Xers: 5 years and 2 months
- Baby boomers: 8 years and 3 months
- Gen-Z: 2 years and 3 months.
Averaging 2 years at each job for 12 years is pretty short.
The perception may be that it's the only way to keep salary up, but that may not be accurate long term. Especially when you include the lost salary between jobs.
Another light just went on about these numbers. Gen Z is (according to Wikipedia), "late 90s to the early 2010s". Let's call that 1998 to 2013 to give us a nice 15 year chunk. Those people are 12-27 years old. It's not surprising that the median length of employment is short, since there are going to be a bunch of them who just got employed and have a median length of basically 0. Heck, if they have all had a single job since they started working at 20 and the ages are equally distributed, that's a median length of employment of 3.5 - obviously implausible, but that's the best it can be. So basically, that particular stat is not useful yet.
The millennial one is more interesting. I'd like to see what that looks like over time, to see if 2008 really kicked them in the nuts as much as they say it did. Of course, once again they've been in the workforce for less time overall so you'd expect the median to be a bit shorter than the two older cohorts.
Also just did the math for myself. I've been at the same company for 23 years but had three fairly quick turns before that. Had to think about when I started working, I think my median is just under 7 years. Says something about how simple stats can give the wrong impression.
This has nothing to do about anyone's search for a job now.
OHSCrifle said:Pull and terminate low voltage cable in buildings. Access control systems. Security systems. Sort software interfaces between elevators and access control and security. Around here that pays pretty well and they can't find people to do it.
Take this and combine it with software background to work in industrial automation. Someone that understands physical layer and software layer of automation could create a nice career as an employee, consultant, or entrepreneur.
mtn said:Now if you have anything constructive to add, let's hear it... Got a way to get your resume looked at that can AI proof it?
Rewrite your resume using ChatGPT. Let the AI, AI-proof it for you. It's been working quite well for me, though I don't know how many companies in my industry are using AI to screen resumes. I got "restructured" out of a job 2 weeks ago, anticipating several offers by the end of next week and I've had 3 different jobs since I graduated college 6.5 years ago.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Same. Born in 1971 so.. Gen X?
(Post college)
Job 1 - 3.5 years
Job 2 - 0.25 years
Job 3 - 5.5 years
Job 4 - 10 years
Job 5 - 1.5 years
Job 6 - 8.5 years
...Jobs 4 & 6 are same company - been there "mostly" since 2004. I don't feel like a job shopper at all. But I did leverage jobs 5 and 6 to find a sizable bump in pay that otherwise was being slow played.
Born in 1965, so I'm an A-model Gen Xer.
(Post college)
Job 1 - 4.5 years - left because I earned my professional license and was rewarded with a hearty handshake; Job 2 offered a 20% pay bump
Job 2 - 7.5 years - left because they relocated the office I was in and new commute was not feasible; otherwise I might still be working there and a partner; also a 10% pay bump
Jobs 3+4 - 7 years - counting this as one entry because Job 3 was acquired by Job 4 and I went along with the package; left because corporate culture sucked and friends had a new startup; 10% pay bump, but that was canceled out by loss of benefits and some vacation
Job 5 - 17 years and counting - I'll leave this job by retiring at the end of this year
So it looks like my real-job average is 9 years.
One thing I think is happening is a lot Millennials are rushing into the workforce and quickly getting burnt out, and using job hopping as a means of getting a 1-Month vacation to travel around Europe and live the #vanlife.
I still contend that a substantial increase in vacation time across the job market, even if unpaid, would increase employee retention.
In reply to pheller :
Do you think a lot of previous generations took time off before entering the workforce? I didn't even finish school before I was working full-time - I got headhunted by one of my own teachers. My wife held down multiple jobs while going to college and went straight into the workforce. My parents worked right out of school. My grandfather took a little time, but that's because he graduated in the middle of the Great Depression.
A substantial increase in vacation time would have to come with a decrease in pay, as the company would still have to pay someone to do the job. Given that there's overhead for every employee, having vacation equivalent to 20% of your working time doesn't mean just a 20% in pay. That's a fair tradeoff, but the employee has to understand it. I agree that good vacation time is likely to lead to better employee satisfaction but it's at direct odds with "I need to make six figures right out of school".
If you want a one month unpaid vacation, talk to your employer. You can probably work something out. And hey, come work construction in Grand Junction. You'll get laid off with job attached during the winter so you can go live in your van.
pheller said:One thing I think is happening is a lot Millennials are rushing into the workforce and quickly getting burnt out,
Ummmm, whut?
It's been pretty much standard practice for average people to get the most-full-time job they can as soon as they can, for, oh, all of written history.
https://news.outsourceaccelerator.com/millennials-sabbaticals-workplace-burnout/
https://gusto.com/company-news/workers-are-taking-more-sabbatical-time
https://www.forbes.com/sites/amandamillerlittlejohn/2024/05/29/millennials-take-advantage-of-sabbaticals-to-reset-after-burnout/
There some articles on the subject. I've seen it firsthand though. I have a friend (40) having a tough time looking for a job after being out of the workplace for 5 years. I also have someone on my team currently on sabbatical (28).
In my experience, many employers do not want to accommodate large chunks of time off, period. I've seen several people quit a job because of this in order to travel.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Your math is right, but since those numbers came from the Bureau of Labor Statistics I'm gonna assume they included employable adults who are actually IN the labor force (not 12 year olds). But who knows.
It still makes a 2 year average length of employment pretty short, and potentially a red flag for an employer.
In reply to prodarwin :
That makes sense.
If I hire you to do a job, and pay to train you to do the job, I probably need the job done. If you wanna take 3 months off to travel, how am I gonna get the job done? Am I supposed to hire someone else to do it, pay to train them, and then fire them when you feel like coming back?
I agree more vacation time is a nice perc, but it's often not very practical (or respectful of the needs of the employer)
budget_bandit said:pheller said:One thing I think is happening is a lot Millennials are rushing into the workforce and quickly getting burnt out, and using job hopping as a means of getting a 1-Month vacation to travel around Europe and live the #vanlife.
I still contend that a substantial increase in vacation time across the job market, even if unpaid, would increase employee retention.Source it or delete it.
It's his opinion. He made that clear. There's no reason he needs to source or delete.
pheller said:One thing I think is happening is a lot Millennials are rushing into the workforce and quickly getting burnt out, and using job hopping as a means of getting a 1-Month vacation to travel around Europe and live the #vanlife.
I still contend that a substantial increase in vacation time across the job market, even if unpaid, would increase employee retention.
I think what you meant to type out is that the market is flooded with millennials in white collar jobs with useless degrees, because all their growing up life it was beat into their head that they had to go to college
Except there was never, and will never be, a need for an entire generation of white collar workers.
I'd go even farther and say that white collar workers WILL be replaced by AI and computers in general if they haven't already long before retirement age, and we're going to see a huge influx in 35-50 year old trade trainees because of it.
Vacation packages suck in this country, no argument there. As does health insurance benefits, food, corporate culture, the air, the roads, the cost of living, the do everything for the shareholders attitudes, annual "raises" that don't keep up with inflation or cost of living causing job hopping just to stay at the same level you were last year let alone try to get ahead, corporations thinking that if you're an employee they own you and your entire life.
There's a TON of E36 M3 that needs to be changed. But you know who can't afford month long vacations across Europe? Working millennials.
So many people who are already getting towards the end of their careers that never grew up or adjusted to the world we live in today are awfully berkeleying judgemental of things they have zero experience with.
The tech sector especially has been oversaturated to the point where if you are not a specialist, there is no place for you. I'm trying to teach my 16 year old step daughter that because she is hell bent on getting into cyber security through college, without knowing anything about it other than the bullE36 M3 she learns at Tech that is already out of date.
Born in '75 so core GenX..
I worked anywhere I could from 16 on up to finishing college. From stacking shelves in a grocery store to admin assistant in a small office to chicken farm flunky to forklift driver in a textile factory to wrapping gifts in a department store during Christmas break to the university motor pool... I changed jobs seemingly with every season depending on where I was and my availability outside of school.
Over my engineering career, my average is ~5 years per company.
The shortest stay was 2 years at the first job out of school. I had the opportunity to expatriate to Mexico or find something else to do. LOL
I had several of 4-5 years stints with different companies.
The longest run was my previous job at around 12 years. It was a good job but they started to really lag on pay. I gathered responsibility without the increase in pay or title.
I will have 2 years at my current job in a couple of months.
I'm just going to pop in and add to the consensus that if you have a corporate office type job, especially if it's close to the tech field, things are really bad right now and it just is what it is.
I just had dinner with a friend on Wednesday night after her employer (won't disclose the company but everyone here who lives in the US is likely familiar with them) laid off 2,000 people effective immediately, she was secure but spooked and had to let go of some really good people under her.
My own company has had four rounds of layoffs that basically halved the size of the company and my team's headcount was reduced from 11 to 2 (I'm one of the survivors). Even if you work for a consumer goods company like Nike you're not safe, they're laying off 1,600 people now.
The scale of some of these layoffs alone makes the prospect of finding a new job difficult without uprooting your entire life. The tech sector has laid off 350k people since 2022, with some companies like Microsoft dumping 12,000 at a time. That puts a lot of people on the market looking for something, anything, and less people are hiring because of economic concerns, so it's just a squeeze for everyone even before you bring the AI bullE36 M3 into the picture.
It's easy to blame the victims and say that they should have known better or entered the trades or not followed the college lie or something else, but a lot of these are good hard-working people that did everything right and just got a raw deal because some executive is under pressure to make a line go up, and they are now competing with more people than ever to find a new job in their field that might be the only thing they've ever done because they have a mortgage to pay and a family to support or whatever else it might be.
Anyway my heart goes out to those who are skilled, devoted to a career path within their skill set, want to work, and are struggling to find something, because it truly is rough out there right now. Not much more to say than that.
SV reX said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
Your math is right, but since those numbers came from the Bureau of Labor Statistics I'm gonna assume they included employable adults who are actually IN the labor force (not 12 year olds). But who knows.
It still makes a 2 year average length of employment pretty short, and potentially a red flag for an employer.
The 12 year olds are not part of the math.
My 3.5 year number only counted people who were actually 20 or older. It's the theoretical maximum for Gen Z workers, assuming working age starts at 20. If the working group only includes people between 20 (0 years of work) and 27 (7 years of work) and the population is evenly distributed, the median can't be greater than 3.5 - that's the number you get if everyone has had the same job for their entire working career. If you look at it that way, 2.25 years isn't actually all that bad.
Of course, that doesn't prevent employers from being unreasonable. We had a job posting at one of my old companies for a webmaster. About the only person who had sufficient experience was Tim Berners-Lee
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