Well theres the problem! (lawnmower E10 content)

About 6 months ago I bought this 5 year old riding mower:

Lately it has been cutting out under load after running for a few minutes. It would stumble a few times and then die. I thought stuck float not letting the float bowl fill and causing it to run out of fuel. When I pulled the carb and intake I ran into pooled fuel so starvation was not the issue. I ran out of time after removing the carb so I dumped as much fuel out as I could and stuck it on a shelf. Today (a week later) I got around to disassembling the carb. This is what I found in the float bowl:

The nastiness out in the open:

Now E10 may or may not have caused it but it sure is nasty.

The upside is that all it took to make it right was a little disassembly and a lot of carb cleaner and the mower runs better than it ever has for me. So the big question: How do I stop this from happening in the future?

Keep cleaning it.

Honestly, I would find out who made the engine, and then post on internet boards that they can't make engines that are robust to fuel. Seriously, it's not as if E10 is really new- it's been around for a decade now.

Every time I hear that as a reason, I cringe- if we released a car that didn't run on fuel you get in every pump in the US, we would be smeared all over the place. Instead, we blame the fuel that they SHOULD be robust to.

I told that to the guy at lowes when i brought my chipper back. He suggested that I run an additive for the next one, I told him that he can keep the chipper, I'll find one that is robust to the fuel that's available at 100% of the stations. New stuff should run just fine, if not, blame the product, not the fuel.

Had a problem w/ a 4 y/o push mower last season, found what appeared to be fuel hose bits in the fuel bowl, replaced fuel hose w/ new, ok for now.

Cpl days ago the tractor engine was cutting out, changed the fuel filter, there was what appeared to be fuel hose bits in the old one... confirmation later after I cut it open.

So I've heard this fuel is not friendly to older fuel hose/ carb pieces.

yeah what brand motor?

fasted58 wrote: Had a problem w/ a 4 y/o push mower last season, found what appeared to be fuel hose bits in the fuel bowl, replaced fuel hose w/ new, ok for now. Cpl days ago the tractor engine was cutting out, changed the fuel filter, there was what appeared to be fuel hose bits in the old one... confirmation later after I cut it open. So I've heard this fuel is not friendly to older fuel hose/ carb pieces.

My point is that is should be robust. Cars are- no problem. 4 years ago, everyone was running E10, so whoever made your mower knew 100% what was going to be put into the fuel tank, and apparently ignored that. And you get the honor of paying for it.

IMHO, that's total BS.

My guess is a Briggs & Stratton with a Walbro carb.

I've fixed this issue by installing a new automotive fuel filter. I skip right over the lawn mower filters and go to the automotive filters. I haven't had a single problem since I did this. All you need to make sure is that it's connections are 1/4".

In reply to Derick Freese:

so what "Year, Make, Model" did you have to tell the guy at the parts counter before he could give you the part?

Derick Freese wrote: My guess is a Briggs & Stratton with a Walbro carb. I've fixed this issue by installing a new automotive fuel filter. I skip right over the lawn mower filters and go to the automotive filters. I haven't had a single problem since I did this. All you need to make sure is that it's connections are 1/4".

Yup, 18hp single Briggs with a Walbro carb. Alfa, It's a plastic fuel tank, rubber fuel hose, screen type filter, more hose and then the carb. There is nothing in the system that seems like it could disintegrate into what I found in the float bowl. If the fuel did that on its own, then I don't know of a carb around that could tolerate it. If it was because of the materials used in the system then what material is the culprit?

In reply to Derick Freese:

Do you know what automotive filter is 1/4"? I've looked to do the same, but can't find one that small.

Probably not relevant, but the fuel hose on my JD lawn tractor went bad, crackled, and leaked after about 4 years. Clearly JD did not use a quality hose. I've had no other issues on the tractor. I haven't been into the carb and I've had no reason to be. Briggs single, stock filter, now about 10 years old.

1/4" is dang small for automotive, but my friendly local motorcycle shop has racks of see-through 1/4" inline filters with and without built-in elbows. I'd hope that they'd be as robust as the automotive units.

In reply to failboat:

I believe he had to steal a VIN off a junked car

go to NAPA and get a filter.. we found one on the shelf with a steel case and 1/4" nipples when we were looking for the one with the 3/8" nipples that i wanted for my car. the part numbers were sequential- once we found the 1/4" one, we move up a part number and found that to be a 5/16" filter, then up another to find the 3/8" filter i needed.

alfadriver wrote: Seriously, it's not as if E10 is really new- it's been around for a decade now.

That's a E36 M3ty solution man. You do realize the VAST majority or equipment in this country is older than 10 years, right? Only one of the engines at my house is post-2002 (the Mazda5). The mower, go-kart, trimmer, edger, weed-eater, Grand Prix, Javelin, and 944 are all pre-02. This ain't unusual, either. On my entire block (built from 1995-2005, mind) there's maybe two mowers newer than 10 years old.

That would be like coming out with a new internet and then wondering why everybody still hates it.

Javelin wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Seriously, it's not as if E10 is really new- it's been around for a decade now.

That's a E36 M3ty solution man. You do realize the VAST majority or equipment in this country is older than 10 years, right?

Except that the engine is question is 5 years old.

"About 6 months ago I bought this 5 year old riding mower"

keethrax wrote:

Javelin wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Seriously, it's not as if E10 is really new- it's been around for a decade now.

That's a E36 M3ty solution man. You do realize the VAST majority or equipment in this country is older than 10 years, right?

Except that the engine is question is 5 years old. "About 6 months ago I bought this 5 year old riding mower"

And the other mower in question is 4 years old.

Javelin, I know you are biased against E10, but when products produced after the fuel became standard fail due to the fuel, that's total BS. Heck, the auto industry became robust to E10 back in the 80's when Methanol was talked about. This isn't rocket science. And it's not as if it's some fringe fuel that you only get in specific areas in the country, they are blaming main fuel.

I agree that the crappy newer motors in question should handle it, but it's still a E36 M3ty response.

Gas is used in far more than cars and the vast majority of autos are over 10 years old (IIRC, a month or so ago they said the average age of a car in the US was 11).

And I'm not against E10, I'm against the stupid politics and rebates that went to the corn industry to make E10 the defacto main fuel. I love me some E85 and I like that Ethanol is a good oxygenator. Sure, I'd prefer E05 or "real" gas, but I can live with E10. It's the money behind E10 that pisses me off.

Here's why mine was running rich:

In reply to MrJoshua:

Ooo... Deja vu... I had to do the same process to my push mower this year. It's maybe 2 years old. After cleaning the crud out of the bowl and clearing the jet, the engine started on the first pull.

So what caused that crap in my float bowl/all tiny little passages in the the carb?

Wish I knew. When I fill the lawnmower gas cans, they get Stabil right at the pump. Like you said, at least fixing it didn't cost anything except a few squirts of carb cleaner. I'm in the "buy cheap, do zero maintenance and replace it when it dies" camp when it comes to mowers, but this one is only a couple of years old, so I decided to do at least some investigating before whipping out the card.

How long has the tractor been sitting. Looks like the fuel evaporated and left a bunchof junk.

I have a 25 yr old lawn mower with a BS engine and a 17 yr old snow blower with the Tecumseth(sp) engine. Neither has ever had a major fuel system problem or part replaced.. Both start right up and run like new. E-10 and Stabilizer, that is all.

iceracer wrote: How long has the tractor been sitting. Looks like the fuel evaporated and left a bunchof junk. I have a 25 yr old lawn mower with a BS engine and a 17 yr old snow blower with the Tecumseth(sp) engine. Neither has ever had a major fuel system problem or part replaced.. Both start right up and run like new. E-10 and Stabilizer, that is all.

this.. if you park it with a bowl full of gas, the volatile stuff evaporates away, leaving all the additives.. we've had E10 since the late 80's in MN, and i've never seen anything go bad that i can attribute to the ethanol. i've seen 40 year old rubber hoses on cars that fell apart- but they were 40 years old- and i've seen fuel pumps in 30 year old cars go bad- but they were 30 years old..

my 1992 vintage Murray rider gets parked every fall with whatever fuel happens to be in the tank, but i pinch off the fuel line and run it until it dies and then push it back in the corner.. it always starts right up and runs perfectly in the spring with nothing more than a jump start. this is with 87 octane E10 and no fuel stabilizers at all.

Not sure if the automotive industry was E10 proof back in the 80's...

My mustangs filler neck gasket did not react well to E10 and the replacement part from Ford was a different compound.

Javelin wrote: I agree that the crappy newer motors in question should handle it, but it's still a E36 M3ty response. Gas is used in far more than cars and the vast majority of autos are over 10 years old (IIRC, a month or so ago they said the average age of a car in the US was 11). And I'm not against E10, I'm against the stupid politics and rebates that went to the corn industry to *make* E10 the defacto main fuel. I love me some E85 and I like that Ethanol is a good oxygenator. Sure, I'd prefer E05 or "real" gas, but I can live with E10. It's the *money* behind E10 that pisses me off.

Why? If you got a great deal on a computer only to find out that once you work with it for a while it's only capable of Win95, you'd be ok with it?

Here's another way to look at it- the E10 rule isn't that old, true. But E10 and M10 have been available since at least 1980, since it's one of the solutions for a non-attainment area- change the fuel, the area gets credit. So the oxygenated fuels have been around for at least 30 years. Car companues have been dealing with it since then. And my 12 year old mower and 14 year old trimmer deals with it just fine. Why do 4 and 5 year old products get a pass???

IMHO, a mower should run whatever I can get at the pump, regarless where I live. If my area had E10 or M10, the motors should be capable of running it. If it's not robust to what I can get at the corner gas station, it's not the gas' fault. This isn't new, and the solution is very well known and easy.

E10 hasn't always been political. For cars up to about 1995, it IS cleaner running.