What do you do with this kid?

Who's not really a kid but is acting like one.

36yr old son split from GF a while back, could not afford their apartment on his own, so we offered him his old room back. He works 30 hours a week by choice, though he never misses a day, he otherwise does nothing with his life - and I mean nothing, drinks beer, smokes, and gets high, and is now at the point where we have to pester him to eat, and sometimes he doesn't. We strongly suspect he's in some sort of depression over the GF deal.

I gave him a talk before Christmas and told him I think he needs to speak with a professional, that he needs to think about his future, and and I want an answer shortly. I'm fed up. I can't stand seeing him like this, but he's an adult, and I can't force him to stop acting like this either. He has otherwise been a good, well behaved kid who turned into a responsible adult.

I think I'm going to drop the hammer tonight and force his hand. Either you see a professional, or you're out on your ass, no negotiation. I know he cant afford to live on his own now with today's prices, and his reduced hours, so I might have some leverage.

Thoughts?

Don't be a hammer when a blanket will do. Try talking to him about why he's depressed / acting this way without judgement. There might be a lot more going on than you know. 

My only qualification here is that I am an ignorant, hot-headed, oppositional shiny happy person so I know what my reaction would probably be. . .   And it wouldn't be a careful calculus of the pros and cons of each branch on that decision tree with a rational understanding that going and seeing a therapist would be a very low price to pay to continue to have a roof over my head.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, I just suspect that if he really is suffering with depression, it's going to be pretty hard to get through that noise to trigger the logic center, yknow?

Peabody said:

drinks beer, smokes, and gets high

Taking depressants isn't going to help him.

For most of the successful people I know, getting off drugs and booze was a big step to being a success.

If ya'll had a hobby you participated in together when he was young, like fishing, autocrossing, or something,  see if you can invite him to do that with you again.  At least it would get him out of the house and his mind off whatever is troubling him.   

Or maybe get a gym membership and go there with him a few times a week.  Exercise is great for mitigating depression because endorphins.

I'm not any sort of mental health professional, but that does sound like depression. And... well, been there, done that, avoided getting the strappy shirt.

Generally, with mental health, the person suffering has to want to get better.  You push too hard too fast and it could backfire spectacularly poorly.

I can only imagine how much this is tearing you up, so I'd reach out to a professional in the field, talk through what you are feeling, and ask how best to handle it to help guide him back to the land of the living.

Jim Carrey has a quote on mental health and depression.  Im gonna paraphrase.

Going outside, exercising, eating properly, everyone likes to claim that these are the way out of depression but these won't get you out of depression.  That bei g said, its like putting gas in a fuel tank.  When you are ready to drive the car you have to have done the maintenance in order to get down the road.

You can't demand that he get better.  As much as I would love for it to, it just doesn't work like that.

At 36 an ultimatum will not work.  And forcing someone into therapy usually doesn't work either.  But the facts might.  You can set some my house my rules stuff and say no pot in the house and limit the drinking.  And telling him he needs to see a professional in a calm logical way is in line.  He feels secure enough in the relationship with you to fall back, you can use that but don't abuse it.  

Unqualified answer from an unqualified individual.. 

Go with him to an AA meeting and both sit in the back?

I know you can't force a person to want help but is it helpful to show a person that help is out there? 

Q: How do you know if you have a drinking problem?

A: When alcohol and its choices are ruining your life.  Is it?

The 30hrs of work needs to change!  No time to sit down has a great way of providing focus and purpose.  

Sit down with him and *Listen* to him.

Take him someplace neutral and non-threatening. Get both of you away from distractions and avoidance tools.

Ask questions and get him to start talking. Listen. Ask more questions.

Do NOT tell him what he "should" do. It doesn't matter if you're right. The idea for how he is going to change needs to come from him. But you can do things to help draw that out of him.

Tell him how you feel or objectively what you observe without judgement. E.g. "I see you spending your free time just smoking and playing games. I'm concerned about how you're doing mentally emotionally. I love you and want to see you enjoying yourself more."

Then just open a door and give him time to start talking. See where that goes. Give it time until it hits a wall or because running in a circle or falls into a rut that are just variations on the same negative theme.

Ask leading questions that are open ended for him to come up with answers. Start with where he is at and slowly pull him towards seeing and wanting to move towards positive things. In particular, I would try to push him towards in-person communal activities that give a sense of accomplishment or purpose (rec sports, music, tabletop gaming, volunteering, etc.).

• When did things start going rough for you?
• What's been the toughest thing about that?
• What's been the best things to happen to you since the big rough time?
• Which of your friends have helped you out the most?
• What would help you feel better that you haven't been getting enough of?
• What else would help you?
• What hobbies would you enjoy filling your time with?
• Before you and [the ex] got together, what did you used to do that you enjoyed?

Things like that.

Getting angry and antagonistic makes it easy for him to push against you. If you want to leverage anything, pulling the dad card of, "I love you so much and it hurts me to see you in this state," flips the script and plays into the human tendency where - we're often fine being self destructive and hurting ourselves, but don't want to hurt the people we care about. So him wanting to care for you can make him want to take better care of himself.

Don't be angry. Be hurt and in need of his help.

As hard as it may be, don't be an enabler. At 30yo, he needs to take some responsibility for his past and present actions. Tread lightly, as these situations, as previously mentioned, could backfire. If it were me, I'd set some ground rules. My house, my rules. My football, my game.

Good Luck and hope the new year brings some resolution even if it's in small occasional doses.

All great advice noted above and I really can't add anything better.  My son was doing well and motivated and then one day mentioned a therapist he started seeing.  

Maybe we all need some help?

Why 30 hours? Maybe full time would help? Or is this the Boomer in me speaking?

I'm in the middle of a job right now but stopped for a short break, so not a lot of detail.  I've done most of what's been suggested, I've also been through something similar when I was in my early twenties. Reading the comments made me  think and realize just how similar the situation is. I've been encouraging and hopeful which has gotten me nowhere. At this point I think it's time to, as was mentioned, stop being an enabler. If I keep allowing it and don't let him fail, nothing is going to change 

Ramblings of an internet idiot who is about to turn 35 and going through some similar personal crises:

I would imagine he's got some underlying issue, or issues, beyond the apparent depression and likely anxiety as well. PTSD, ADHD, Bipolar, ASD, something along those lines.

I would be careful about "dropping the hammer". It may be the correct thing to do. But be careful with it.

The alcohol and weed sound similar to my use of them at times. There have been times that they've been the only thing keeping me sane, but they work for me for 1-3 nights (alcohol) or 3-14 days (weed) before they become a very noticeable negative force in my life. I would encourage their discontinuation if not outright rehab - but again, is the alcohol and weed the issue or is their use a symptom of something else?

I am trying to come to terms with the paradox that we live in the best time in history from an objective point of view while it is simultaneously the worst time in probably the past 50-100 years for someone like me. I have little to no doubt that had I been coming of age before the advent of the internet and smartphones, my life would be a better comparatively. It also doesn't help that my wife and I have had 2 jobs for most of our adult lives, and that was never in the plans - or if it was, it was to get us to retirement earlier instead of to pay the mortgage and grocery bills. I wish I had realized and gotten my ADHD diagnosis much earlier in my life, and I could have avoided much of my current struggles; I feel like I need to start over in my professional life and I don't know how to do it. The people that I've leaned on for help in my life don't get that and try to say that I've been successful - which I have - but it has been constant emotional stress and I haven't enjoyed any of it. I can't go on with it. But now I don't know what to do, I'm close to just going to Costco tire and start changing tires until I can figure it out.... sorry, that was a long wall of personal struggle that probably isn't relevant here.

At a minimum I would have him speak regularly with a therapist/counselor/psychiatrist/psyhcologist as a requirement of staying with you. 
 

I think it's totally okay to setpersonal boundaries in your own home, as long as you do it from an empathetic and respectful manner.  I may be wrong, but I don't think Mr Peabody is gonna go in scorched earth on the guy, at least I hope not.  Again, in the same breath, I feel for your son, but maybe he needs to know that he needs to at least make an attempt at getting out of his own way.  Basically, there's gotta be a middle ground and common understanding found if he's going to continue living in your home, that's it that's all.  I can't imagine anyone is really truly happy with the current situation- you, your son, or your other household members... 

Datsun240ZGuy said:

Maybe we all need some help?

Why 30 hours? Maybe full time would help? Or is this the Boomer in me speaking?

I've yet to meet someone that couldn't benefit from it in some aspect of their life. 

Full time might help.  Might also be more than he can handle.  When you are in a hole you learn to only take on what you can.  "If I do more than 30hrs of work, I'm gonna have to give up showering."

Its not that cut and dried, but you definitely "run out of spoons"

FIRST, do all those positive caring mentally healthy things previously mentioned in this thread.  Good advice.
 

After that, if you've really reached the moment to be tough, give some consideration to the ways in which you've been enabling...
 

Don't treat him like a child.  I know you don't think you do, but be honest with yourself. Are you treating him the way you would treat another adult?  Would you offer a discount room to another adult who just lays on the couch and gets high?  Would you try to solve an adult's mental health problems, or fix their financial issues?

Think it through. I suspect you will find a list of things you do that you would not do for any other adult. Then talk with him about those things. Admit it. Confess. Apologize. 
 

Then explain to him that you want to treat him like an adult that you love.  And outline what that means. In detail. 
 

Years back my brother was in a similar position (without a job). I offered him a place to stay. He and I are VERY different (and live on opposite sides of the country).  I explained to my wife that if he were to take me up on the offer, I would not be ok with him living in my house making lifestyle choices that I disagreed with. He would get treated like any other adult male. 
 

He didn't take me up on it, but 20 years later he is still VERY appreciative of the offer. He just needed me in his corner supportive of him.

In reply to Peabody :

If the softer approach I suggested has already been tried and not effective.

I think the tactic of, "My house. My rules..." is a good one.

I'd say clearly defined stages with different time lines for improvement. Say:

• Limit and/or prohibit alcohol and drugs, or you're out in [4-6 weeks].
• Start seeing a therapist or you're out in [4-6 weeks].
• If you stop seeing the therapist without clearing it with us, you will be out in [3-5 weeks].
• Take up some kind of social activity* that gets you out of the house within [8-10 weeks].
• We will give you [3 months, 4 months, or 6 months] of this. If you've not gotten yourself on track, you will be out at the end of that month.

Is the goal to get him out of the house and back on his own? or to get his E36 M3 together and start behaving positively? That effects that last step.

Edit: I would have that conversation in a neutral location, not in the house.

Double Edit: "Social Activity" doesn't necessarily mean "group" activity. But something where you're out in an environment to meet and interact with other people. Even if it's a "solo" activity like going to the gym, a skatepark, or a roller rink or something.

Do you guys do anything together on a regular basis? Something that he could look forward to, and forget about the E36 M3ty stuff for awhile? Sometimes being happy, even for a couple of hours makes a big difference. And it could give him a chance to feel something without the use of substances.

Go for hikes. Lift weights. Ride bikes. Work on cars. Find something that you can do together that's fun and/or productive and doesn't involve sitting on the couch or relying on substances to numb whatever he's feeling.

I have always appreciated my parents' approach, and expect to follow it whenever I need to with my own kids:

"You can live with here any time you need to, for as long as you're actively trying not to."

This is probably worth what you're paying for it, as I've not been in your shoes and there are many voices here better versed in this than I am. It also might not be the right approach for every kid, and I don't know yours, but here's some thoughts I'd strongly be considering for the described situation...

A parent's job is not to support their child, it's to help their child learn how to support themselves. You don't have to 'drop the hammer' to not be an enabler, and expectations need to be set before they can justifiably be enforced. Rather than drop him in the proverbial pot of boiling water, gradually raise the temperature on him.

There was no mention of rent or household expenses. If he's not contributing already, it's time for him to start. Not because you need him to, but because he needs him to. It should start on the smaller (but fair) side, like 1/3 of shared groceries and 1/4 market price for a small apartment within 30 minute drive from his work, increasing incrementally (both rent and household expenses he pays 1/3 of) over time. The increases could be quarterly and flexibly dependent (temporarily paused or reversed) upon pre-defined level of effort (SMART*) criteria. These might include things like weekly hours worked, weekly hours applying and/or interviewing for job growth, weekly hours of professional development, weekly hours of educational (passing grade required to count) development etc. If no changes are made, he's paying market rate for rent and 1/3 of all household expenses in 9 months, and faces the rent increase continuing above market rate for the second year.

Assuming his being there isn't putting an undue financial strain on you, put everything he pays you into a separate high-interest (higher available, but Ally @ 3.8% is an easy one) savings account. Determine a fair scale for determining the proportion of it that gets returned to him upon his moving out based on clearly defined (SMART*) criteria, and the maximum does not need to be 100%. These criteria would then be regarding meeting weekly with a certified mental health professional, as well as possibly participation in a substance abuse program, and also lays out what he loses out on whenever he doesn't.

No smoking (or smell of smoke) and no illegal drugs in your house should absolutely be part of the agreement, with significant penalties for infringements.

The fact that he's already overstaying his welcome and taking advantage of you means this all probably needs to be documented in writing. He is also free to move out at any point that he feels these conditions are unreasonable.

*Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-bound.

Driven5 said:

*Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-bound.

Off topic. Thanks for the reminder. I always forget what the R is.

I'm always trying to use that to guide stuff at work with other people.

Make it clear that he doesn't get to act like a child and be treated like an adult. Children live at home. Adults support themselves. If he was 16 you wouldn't let him drink and get high. Kids move out of the home to enjoy the freedom from their parent's rules. They leave comfortable homes with most of their needs attended to and move into E36 M3ty apartments because their freedom is more important that their comfort. They then realize that if they want freedom and comfort, they need to work for it. If you give him both, he has no incentive to improve his situation. Especially when alcohol and drugs are involved. 
 

Set ground rules. They need to be strict enough to make it clear that he is living in your house, not his. You can add some concessions to reward behaviors as you see fit. Perhaps charge a reasonable rent. Enough to make it not a free ride. Then save it for him until he is out on his own again and he can use it to help get his own place. 
But do not compromise on the message, this is not his place. He should not be too comfortable living there. 
 

And of course be a father and help him understand how he got where he is and what he needs to do to get back on his feet. Get him counseling if he needs it, but do not accept it as an excuse for his situation. He needs to understand that he and he alone is responsible for his situation, at 36, that should not be a tough sell. Was he like this before he split form his GF? If so, I'm guessing that was part of the reason for the split. GF probably realized a man that only works 30 hours, and drinks and gets high instead was not the best for her future. He should learn from that lesson, that's what life is. Learning from your mistakes and moving on. Not regressing into the past and becoming a 36 year old teenager. 

Javelin said:

Don't be a hammer when a blanket will do. Try talking to him about why he's depressed / acting this way without judgement. There might be a lot more going on than you know. 

I agree, and that was our discussion before Christmas that was essentially ignored, like everything else we've either discussed, or tried.

Surprisingly most answers agree with what we've already done, or are planning to.

I tried to convince him to come to the track with me, I even offered to buy him a bike. Nope. He's a pretty decent bass player, I suggested he take some lessons, or even look for people to jam with. Nope, I can't get him off his ass. I told him, you're not going to meet any girls sitting in your room. Nothing.

For perspective, the split from his GF was a little messy, but it was the right decision, and had nothing to do with him, he was working regular hours and making good money, though that job went away through no fault of his own. He was not the problem, and she was not a good long term prospect, I'll leave it at that.  I think the loss of his long term job and loss of his GF at about the same time is where it started, and he's been this way for some time and we didn't know. There is no illegal drug use, though I do think he drinks far more than he should. He never was a drinker and IMO, shouldn't be.

I think we're on the right track, as long as we follow through. I'm about as fair and reasonable as it gets, there won't really be a hammer, I just need to make a statement and not back down. And that statement will be something like  you are clearly having problems you need help with. I'm not going to watch you go through this without offering some help, and I'm also not going to let you continue to live this way in my house. You need to admit that you have a problem and do something about it, and I will be there to help.

I'm going to make a suggestion that I didn't see in the other responses, but wanted to mention.

One approach could be for you to meet with a therapist to set an example for your son that it's ok to get professional help. This would also provide an opportunity to discuss the issues you are having with your son and determine the best approach to take with guidance from a professional. 

Then at the appropriate time you could use this as an opportunity to have him join you for a session ("to help you") and open the door for him to start seeing a professional to get back in track. 

just a thought...

In reply to Peabody :

We'll that's good news, that he was working hard before the breakup, and it sounds like the breakup is a good thing for him long term and he knows it. You just need to get him to end the pity party that he is throwing for himself, and get him to look forward instead of at the past. One door closes and another one opens and all that. Unless you are sitting on the couch. Pretty much everyone here that is happy with their current relationship and job lost some in the past. And while it sucked in the moment, they are thankful that they ended, or they wouldn't be so happy now. You need to be understanding but firm. Make it clear that you aren't punishing him, you just believe in him even if he doesn't believe in himself right now. Help him not see it as a negative, but as a new start. Let him know that you are there to help him up, not to enable him to stay down. 

From Rob Halford as today is the 39th anniversary of his sobriety. Link to his IG post.