What do you do with this kid?

Peabody said:

I tried to convince him to come to the track with me, I even offered to buy him a bike. Nope. He's a pretty decent bass player, I suggested he take some lessons, or even look for people to jam with. Nope, I can't get him off his ass. I told him, you're not going to meet any girls sitting in your room. Nothing.

[...]

I think the loss of his long term job and loss of his GF at about the same time is where it started, and he's been this way for some time and we didn't know. There is no illegal drug use, though I do think he drinks far more than he should. He never was a drinker and IMO, shouldn't be.

I'm around your son's age and I'd guess these two are related. Not necessarily in the sense that he hasn't got over his ex, but in the sense that with the way his life is going right now, the idea of dating seems like a joke. He's broke as hell, doesn't even have his own place, overall in absolutely no shape to compete on the dating scene. I've felt like that for most of my life. Maybe he figures he can't afford dating or to do anything meaningful with his life, but he can afford enough alcohol to forget all those problems outside of working hours.

I can also make a guess at why he's sticking to his 30hr/wk job: most jobs are dogE36 M3 right now. Companies seem to be uninventing weekends and ordinary/predictable work hours these days, workloads are going through the roof everywhere, and if his previous job was some sort of white-collar work, the whole job market still looks like a smoking crater at the moment. If his 30hr/wk job isn't terrible he might not be seeing too many better options, and could rightly be afraid of making the leap into something potentially worse and having nothing to fall back on but driving for Uber or Amazon.

I haven't run it by the Mrs, a counselor, but a few things occur to me:

1. We do well when we *can* do well. 
I don't know what that looks like in your son's life, but for some reason, ___ is the problem and he's using alcohol, weed, etc. as the solution. 
 

2. I agree with the idea of treating him as an adult. Like just stopping and thinking of how you'd treat some random adult in this situation. Obviously there's more there between you two, but that seems like a good place to start. 
 

3. I agree with the idea of him needing to meaningfully contribute to the household. I know a great guy who founded the Kansas City Rescue Mission. Joe used to be homeless himself. He told me once to not give simple handouts even to acquaintances since it breeds a sense of entitlement and worthlessness/powerlessness. In our case, he suggested something like having the guy do yard work, for instance. 
 

4. Probably aggravating any of the above problems is, as has been pointed out, his chemical depressants.

5. Not knowing the guy I don't know about the risk for suicidality, but in general, given what you've said, I'd be kinda concerned that with his combo of life situation and depressants intake, too big of a hammer could spark a sense of overwhelm? That said, is there a way to make the required changes (no more weed, etc., start paying for things, help out around the house) less of a hard hit?

6. Counseling should be able to help, but yeah you gotta want it. IIRC, depression is an automated self-protective response when feeling powerless to overcome feeling bad about one's self. For what that's worth. People with depression are typically subconsciously avoiding negative feelings that they feel ill-equipped to handle, so their body shuts down feeling anything *at all*.
That said, a conversation with him while using some compassionate curiosity might help you, too:

When and what was the last big thing he felt?

Has he ever felt so numb in his life before?

That's a rough situation, man. I feel for you. 

The group counseling(you and your son) does sound like a start.  You need the counselor to understand how to communicate effectively with him.  He needs it for many reasons.  But if he can get to a place where he is working at something he perceives as rewarding and has a professional to help him deal with the realities of life both of you will be much happier.

Both of my kids had career path issues in their 20s.  They were both seeing someone to help deal with life.  Now they have new careers where they work crazy long hours and love it and healthy relationships.  They still have sessions for self help and it is working.  Could not be happier for them.

Is the 30 hour work week because that's the most he can work with the job he can find without taking a drug test? A daily user can take weeks to clean up enough to pass a pot test. I know two 40ish year old drug felons who can't give up pot and the only jobs they can find are working at the car wash or an oil change establishment.

Huh?  You can perform a task for 30 hours as a druggie (or whatever), but not 31 - 40?  Every job I had required a piss test first, one even wanted blood.

In reply to 914Driver :

The 30 hours is so they don't have to pay full time benefits.

I'd give him the house under the condition that I get to stay there, and then on the week the mortgage bill shows up I'd lay around all week getting drunk and watching tv in my pajamas.

All jokes aside, the role reversal can be a helpful technique for both parties. What would you do in his shoes, what would you want, what would you need? Also ask him what he thinks you should be doing. And be specific that not answering isn't acceptable.

In reply to 914Driver :

None of mine have, although one of the first interviews I ever got was for a corporate IT position with a company that said it would be required. I didn't make it that far through the interview process though. The average age of the company's employees seemed to be about that of a bingo hall.

914Driver said:

Huh?  You can perform a task for 30 hours as a druggie (or whatever), but not 31 - 40?  Every job I had required a piss test first, one even wanted blood.

It's been several years since I needed to take any drug tests for new jobs, but I remember one went so far as to check for alcohol, and a few too many the night before the rest could trigger a positive result. 

As marijuana becomes legal, companies are having to modify testing to exclude marijuana. 

As an example, my son just went through testing for a new job and because Mass legalized it several years ago they don't test for marijuana, but continue to test for other drugs. 

VolvoHeretic said:

In reply to 914Driver :

The 30 hours is so they don't have to pay full time benefits.

None of the above. Drug testing is not common here, and in most cases is not allowed. He works in a specialty machine shop and works 30hrs a week by choice, with full benefits. It's a pretty good gig, really.

I kind of regret posting this yesterday, airing our dirt laundry, but I was frustrated. There have been some good comments, and even though there are a lot of moving parts, I think I have a better feeling for what's happening. There is possibly some depression, at very least he's in a rut, and using the alcohol to self medicate. He's not naturally a driven, motivated person, and more likely to just hang out than take on a project, and neither is he overly social, traits he inherited. The self medication is only making that worse. 

I'm making it too easy for him, I accept blame for that. As long as he can, he's going to take advantage. He kind of knows that he has a problem, but just dismisses it. In my early 20's I had similar troubles, that eventually would become serious nervous and anxiety problems. It was those problems that smartened me up, made me get my E36 M3 together. The doctors at the time explained that I knew what I was doing to myself, I knew how bad I was getting and the more I self medicated, the worse I became until I started having mental problems. Unfortunately I don't think everybody has that internal warning system.

He has some things he needs to get over and I will push for some counseling

I hear you and fully understand. I'm retired now, but (I grew up without parental guidance after my 20th birthday and) my best ability is that I'm a great quitter.

If he has friends who are good to him and good for him, and if you know who they are, maybe reach out to them. His friends are his peers, and peers listen to each other. People often rebel against authority, but you can't rebel against your friends.

And don't beat yourself up for posting this. You were obviously frustrated, but it seems like you wanted to do the right thing.

You aren't alone. We are dealing with something similar in our family right now. Once his parents die, dude is SOL. Nobody else in the family can afford to house/feed him. At least your son has a job, I'd be thrilled for that in our situation.

All I can say is start AA and therapy ASAP. We waited too long before pushing the issue and now have a hard uphill battle to get him independent again.

In reply to Peabody :

Hope this all works out well for you and your son.

Interested in a later report, but totally get if you want to keep things more personal.

It sounds to me like he is comfortable where he is and has no motivation to do more. Few responsibilities, plenty of cash for his booze and drugs, and room and board to boot. What's not to love about that situation? Why would he change? 

It's going to be up to you to make him uncomfortable enough to change. You don't have to drop the hammer or be a hard ass for that to happen. You can even tell him what you are doing upfront. 

It's basically how I encouraged all of my kids to get out on their own. I told them all up front that it was time for them to move on and that life at home would get uncomfortable unless they did. None of them took more than a year to get out once they knew the deal.  

I usually started with rent, food, and car insurance soon after they got out of school. If you aren't already charging him for those, you need to and it needs to be at market rates not mom and dad rates. Whatever a room and a month's worth of groceries would cost. Does he pay for his own phone? If not, he needs to be. You should not subsidize any of his living expenses.

Then if I need help with something, they get to help even if they don't want to or have other plans. Basically, I have first dibs on their free time. And when they pop back about how they are adults and they can do what they want, I explain to them that adults don't live with mom and dad. If they want to be treated like adults they have to behave like adults. 

Don't be a hard ass. Explain to him your expectations and how you are going to encourage him to meet them. Then do it. 

In reply to Toyman! :

Wise words here. 

Toyman! said:

Basically, I have first dibs on their free time. And when they pop back about how they are adults and they can do what they want, I explain to them that adults don't live with mom and dad.

holy crap I love that.

Don't be a hard ass.

Agreed. My kids are decades from needing this advice, but most people regardless of age don't respond well to ultimatums and hammer down demands and general hard ass crap. It's an act and not something people should do to people they love. If he's robbing banks then sure he needs some hard consequences. But being lazy and depressed isn't it. I hope you're able help him get out of the funk he finds himself in. It's not a great place for anyone. 

In reply to Toyman! :

You are correct, he is too comfortable. Even though we don't charge him, he works for me and does any job I ask, typically without prompting, and is usually quite thorough. I've run out of jobs for him currently. We don't pay any of his bills.

This is a kid that's lost his way. He was on his own for a dozen years and was responsible enough that, at 36, as long as he doesn't do anything stupid, already has the pieces in place for retirement. We will get him back on track, it's just going to be a little work.