What is it with plumbers?

Peabody said:

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to mfennell :

I don't deny that many people in the trades have health issues.  However, there are others (like me) who are MUCH healthier than our counterparts in our age group who work in offices.

For some, it creates stress on the body.  For some, it means healthy outdoor living with a physical career that keeps them in good shape.

Same thing in an office.  For some, it means they have not beat up their body.  For others it means that they have sat on their butts for 30 years and become a potato.

The construction industry does not automatically mean a broken body.  That is more likely to be a result of bad choices.

I almost went off about that myself... again

 I don't know where people get these crazy ideas, though I have an idea, but you'd think that in 40 years as a tradesman I would have seen some indication of this.

It's a myth that I've only ever seen on this forum, but no more ridiculous than the other other trade myths still around from when I was in high school.

I say keep it up because as long as people's ignorance of the trades continues, the job offers and wages keep going up, which is one of the reason's it's going to be difficult for me and a lot of other trades people to retire.

I didn't "get" this crazy idea.  I observed it, over many years.   My mechanic friends, my high-end cabinet maker friend, the carpet installer, the floor installer.  Largely physical careers take a bigger toll on your (OK, most people's) body.  It does seem like construction is one of the more body-friendly trades, maybe because there's more freedom of movement/less repetition (depending on what phase of construction you're involved in, I guess)?  Plumbers and carpet installers have knee problems.  Electricians have a higher incidence of arthritis.  

Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) said:

Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) said:

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to pheller :

What are you suggesting?  Tradespeople should subsidize lower income families?

 

You wouldn't say that about doctors, or teachers, or policemen. 

Yes, I would- because those professions *ARE* subsidized for lower income folks through reduced taxes or government assistance in the USA. 

You think doctors, teachers and police should work for free? 

SHOULD? That's up to them.

Subsidized?  It's *already* happening. They're getting paid. We're all paying for the people that can't. The police will come for a penniless homeless person or a wealthy lawyer. 

I mean, if you want to debate paying people for labor, pick people that don't get government assistance to perform their duties. The subsequent post regarding mechanics was a better example.

 

In reply to Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) :

Sometimes it's pretty hard to be perfect around here. 
 

I think you understood my point. 

... and NONE of those jobs require the individuals to subsidize people directly. 

Are we suggesting a taxpayer based subsidy system that pays a portion to contractors to help middle class people fix their houses?

Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) said:

Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) said:

Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) said:

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to pheller :

What are you suggesting?  Tradespeople should subsidize lower income families?

 

You wouldn't say that about doctors, or teachers, or policemen. 

Yes, I would- because those professions *ARE* subsidized for lower income folks through reduced taxes or government assistance in the USA. 

You think doctors, teachers and police should work for free? 

SHOULD? That's up to them.

Subsidized?  It's *already* happening. They're getting paid. We're all paying for the people that can't. The police will come for a penniless homeless person or a wealthy lawyer. 

I mean, if you want to debate paying people for labor, pick people that don't get government assistance to perform their duties. The subsequent post regarding mechanics was a better example.

 

That is government subsidized. That was not part of the discussion.

Reread the first comment in this string from SVreX. 

I'm certainly not getting subsidized by any government program...

I want to day I paid around $600 for my 50 gal 40,000 BTU Gas water heater at the big orange box store and installed it in about 30 minutes. I spent more time lugging the new one down the stairs in to the basement and then lugging the old one out.  I think my $600 included the box store taking my old one and disposing of it.  I just had to drop it off. 

I could see a 4 hour minimum and a disposal fee if I was paying for the install.  

In reply to docwyte :

Not directly, but many insurances are subsidized by the government for low income people. 

This thread if far enough off track already. Time for me to move on. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

It sounds like he is suggesting a form of socialistic Robin Hood that is funded by the contractors.

Incorrect.

I am asking - what contributes to the high overhead of many trades people? How we can we change things nationally, systemically, that might lower new housing costs and the costs to maintain or renovate existing homes? This isn't just me saying this, I know lots of younger home owners like me who say "I have a good job, drive a cheap car, don't spend friviously, and hiring a plumber or an electrician for a "little job" nearly wipes out my week's earnings." 

I know lots of guys who'd do good work for $20/hr, but can't, because insurance costs them $5/hr. So they charge $25.

Or guys who go to great trades schools, get great modern educations, then can't work for themselves due to all kinds of licensing or certification related issues. They work for some big outfit who charges their customers $100/hr and learn all kinds of bad habits from co-workers. That combined with the higher overheads prevents them from offering their work to a larger market. Now the tradesguy costs $40/hr to their employer. 

Of course, part of it is home construction methods too. You could argue that some elements of modern homes make it very difficult for the DIY guy to fix himself. Or how the dealer/supplier networks won't sell to residential customers, but are marked up heavily by installers. Or, like I mentioned earlier in the thread, the shear amount of time necessary to do proper fixes or renovations limits the ability of low-income home owners to do the work necessary. Me? I'm struggling with the fact that I've got a neighbor kid who would love to help me with some projects but I get nervous about the liability issues. That liability (and paying for his vacation too) makes the tradesperson $45/hr. 

Then there's the whole retirement thing. My father never really planned on retirement. That was an oldschool thing that's quickly changing. Lots of guys are charging rates that include their retirement too (or expected early retirement due to joint issues.) Our tradesperson now costs $50/hr. 

His company has a scheduler, janitor, big fancy warehouse/shop, that costs another couple of bucks. Don't forget the owner of the company who after a 30 year career is sipping well deserved cocktails on a beach making $5/hr off every employee in his 50 person company. Our tradesperson now costs $65/hr. That's $135,000 annually, of which the tradesperson might see half of. 

Again, these are perfectly acceptable reasons to raise and charge rates, but my point is:

In 1950, the vast majority of middle class workers were tradespeople. When most families hired a plumber, he was getting paid the same hourly wage as the breadwinner of the household who paid him. It was a 1:1 exchange. 

Today, the vast majority of the middle class are not tradespeople, but the trades pay (and charge) much higher rates. I make $30/hr, but I'm lucky if I can find a licensed/bonded/insured contractor for $30/hr, much less $50/hr. That's not because the plumber is now making $100k a year, but because his overheads (or his company) are skimming half of his billed rate. 

I'm trying to be respectful here. I have friends and family who works in the trades. I respect the occupation. I want to learn myself, often considered working as a plumber or in HVAC as a career change. Maybe I'm wrong and my numbers aren't right and I just need to better wrap my head around this topic. I'm just voicing what I've been hearing among people of my age/generation/socio-economic status. 

I replaced a water heater about 6 months ago. A friend of mine from the dog park charged me about $1,000 to do it. He works for himself, has no employees and drives a plain vanilla Chevy van. He brought his German Shepherd to play with my Huskies in the backyard while he worked.  I never call the places who advertise on all the local TV and radio stations and have a fleet of new trucks with fancy graphics, but I imagine they might be a little bit more. Those people in Denver must be smoking something. 

I believe part of the problem is it seems there are fewer young people getting into the trades - seems like many study programming or other desk jobs. Couple this with a general lack of interest in fixing things and you suddenly have less supply of qualified people for the same or increased demand.  So prices rise. 
 

plus there are a lot of costs associated with owning a business that travels to do their job.  
 

jfryjfry (Forum Supporter) said:

I believe part of the problem is it seems there are fewer young people getting into the trades - seems like many study programming or other desk jobs. Couple this with a general lack of interest in fixing things and you suddenly have less supply of qualified people for the same or increased demand.  So prices rise. 
 

plus there are a lot of costs associated with owning a business that travels to do their job.  
 

 

The average age is definitely rising in construction, no one my age (37) is really doing it. In the last 15 years I've worked with exactly 1 person younger than me

I'm 32 and started plumbing full time at the start of the year. We're a two man company so I don't know about overheads and all that and I'm confident our rates are lower than almost anyone locally (in fact I think we undercharge for materials and could use an honest look at raising our hourly rate). But if I spend 3 hours working, chances are I'm also spending 1-1.5 hours making supply runs or just driving to the job. I don't charge for that, but I've gotta be paid by the company for my hourly wages.  
The only guys I ever see on worksites that's are younger than me are 18-20ys doing grunt labor and looking for a way out. If I was smart I would have done this 5 years ago. The job market is looking pretty good for me. All the plumbing trucks I see have signs "looking to hire". Seems like I'll be able to keep my family fed pretty easily even if for the moment I'm only making apprentice money. I've definitely been in worse positions. And I thoroughly enjoy the jobs that require problem solving. 

In reply to pheller :

I'm not entirely sure what the answer is.  I work in the professional field and I know my billing rate to our clients is usually a little over 2x my hourly rate, give or take a decimal place or so.  That has to cover the corporate overhead, insurance, retirement match, and a bit of profit. It's also one reason why management likes OT - the first three are relatively fixed to a 40 hr week.  If I can bill more than 40 hrs, it's more of the 4th.

Similarly, our job market would shift a lot if we have universal health care because people could work gig jobs and not worry about injury or illness as much. 

This is part of the reason I'm a big advocate for universal single-payer healthcare. It helps to level the playing field between corporations, businesses and the self-employed. 

R&R?

Rent and relax?

jfryjfry (Forum Supporter) said:

I believe part of the problem is it seems there are fewer young people getting into the trades - seems like many study programming or other desk jobs. Couple this with a general lack of interest in fixing things and you suddenly have less supply of qualified people for the same or increased demand.  So prices rise. 
 

That's entirely the problem. When I think trades I don't think construction, I think industrial because that's where I am but for us it's gone from bad to worse. I just left a 20 year job, and in the last 10 years there, with a small department of 6 tradesmen per shift,  the maintenance department had only brief periods when they had full employment, and when management cut us back to 8 hr shifts from 12's, half the department was gone in a month for better jobs. I was very particular, and sent my resume out to 4 places, and got 3 job offers. Oddly, the one that didn't offer me the job was the one I was most qualified for. The place I went to had been looking for a year. They were looking for 2 guys and hired the second about 8 months after I started. He gave his notice Monday.

Our local government is pushing the trades right now, and a friend of mine is a teacher who took his kids to a presentation from the ministry responsible for trades. The next day he got a call from an irate mother because her son came home with the idea that he might want to pursue a trade. Her son was too good for that, he was going to university

If you so feel like it, price the labor for this bathroom on a 2nd floor:

remove tile shower, poorly made, lots of heavy stuff.  Remove old vanity, toilet, bathtub.  Remove and rebuild wall to make shower larger, including moving vent pipe.  Take up tile floor, cement board, underlayment.  run new circuit for new outlets and lighting with new breaker.
Replumb to move vanity across room, replumb shower drain and new shower faucet.  Move light over shower.

All drywall repair, re-texture ceiling, prime and paint ceiling and walls. Install fiberglass shower system with new doors.  Install new double vanity with marble top.  New baseboards, new tile floor, new toilet, install lighting and accessories and mirrors.  Haul away and dispose of all trash.  

customer provided all large materials, we provided about $1000 worth of materials.  Job took 8 days.  
 

how much would you expect the labor to cost?

 I'm just curious to what people think versus what we actually charge

I'm laughing because my labor to do that would be about $3,000.

If i subbed it out to the tradesmen I sometimes use...  $7,200.  and a ton of scheduling headaches...

Last year when i met with my accountant she asked me, "Frog, have you ever thought about going to work for McDonalds?"

I replied, "Why do you ask Jessica?"   She answered, "Because you would make more money and get free uniforms..."

In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :

How many guys on the job?  My semi-WAG is around $10K.

If the economy gets really bad with the Coronavirus you might get more people saying "I only have X amount to spend, if it's more than that, goodbye and have a nice day." and then you can sit around and wait for somebody with more money to call. Or maybe you will want to take that job at McDonalds because their checks don't bounce. 

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

2, and you nailed it.  There's also the fact that we(myself and my mom) are basically holding their hand/consulting prior to even signing them up for anything, getting calls about materials and colors at weird times, etc.  A lot of time goes in before anyone can even swing a hammer

Funny plumbing story today.  Customer wanted a Rinnai tankless water heater.  Good situation.  They already had a natural gas line  3 feet from where the unit would be on the outside wall, with a union in the line right below the unit.   I installed the unit, all the water lines, the remote control box in their laundry room, and a new waterproof electric circuit all the way from their panel.

But... because it was natural gas, and not my own home, we (the customer, the realtor, and me) decided to hire a plumber to make the gas connection, all "official like".

First trip:  I met plumber on site, showed him the gas line with union and the unit just above it.  He took no pictures or measurements.   "OK, we can do it tomorrow."

Second day:  He broke the union open removed an elbow, put in a "T", and a 3" nipple, and vanished.

Third day:  Hooked up the next 3 feet and flexible yellow 5/8" line.  I had to run off and buy a new union for him.  (I specified 3 times on initial visit it needed to be 3/4" line...)

4th and 5th day   ....  oops its a weekend (we don't work weekends unless you want to pay double)

Day six:   Pressure tested system, got inspection.  Returned later and turned on gas.  Minutes later I showed customer how to set controller and experience hot water.

Now,   I saw his bill happened to be about $175 more than he quoted on day one.  But, I didn't say a word, just smiled and scratched out a check,  even gave him a tip.  As he drove off I just laughed.  I can see why some homeowners get perplexed...