What the Confederate flag means to me

I'm 33 born,raised, and lived in Mississippi until 2006. I've seen more truck flying Confederate flags in Indiana than I ever did back home.

Most people will never understand how things work in the south. To say white people and their "racism" is the only part of the problem is naive. A large portion of the black community works in a manner to get each other as much free govt assistance as possible. This includes getting a job in the welfare office to grease the wheels of an application. If you run across someone with that attitude and you don't immediately give them what they want the race card gets played. I seen plenty of black people with food stamps driving a new car with new clothes while a white family that barely makes ends meet makes too much money to get assistance.

Racism goes both ways people.

But I'm sure it's a simple flag that causes it all.

p.s. it's OK if you don't believe me, neither did my wife until she saw it first hand.

In reply to DaveEstey:

Semantics argument. I'll pass.

But I can tell you that the word "memorial" appears thousands of times at this particular museum, and that it is the home of the Dignity Memorial Vietnam Wall.

As a Northerner, this discussion is interesting and educational for me, and I'm glad to see it staying civil (no pun intended).

I'm not one to tell other people what to do. If the people of SC want to fly that flag over their capital, then so be it, they have that right. As long as they understand how it will affect other people's perceptions of their state. As for what the flag "means", it doesn't really matter what it used to mean. It's been co-opted by racist extremist groups at this point. That doesn't mean it needs to go away, but again, if you CHOOSE to fly it, you must be prepared to be lumped in with those kinds of people, fairly or unfairly.

As a Sourthen boy who has spent the majority of his life up North, the Confederate flag has also been a conflicted subject for me recently and obviously moreso lately. Further complicated by the fact I grew up the son of a professional Civil War historian (who grew up in Virginia). I grew up with my father's den ringed with pictures of Civil War generals, mostly Southern but many Northern as well.

From the earlist I can remember, I was taught slavery was wrong and it was good "we" lost, but then we'd play Civil War board games and were always trying to find ways so the South could win the battles. Odd. Then again, it may have been just an "underdog" thing since we'd play WW2 games and did the same thing with the Japanese - despite the fact his own father fought them during WW2. Somehow I've always had a way of being able to separate the tactical aspects of an individual battle from the politics of why the war was being fought.

So I tend to think of the flag as a symbol of my heritage (family on my father's side fought for the South) corrupted by those filled with hate and fear. But I can also understand why they chose that symbol.

All that said, from a purely selfish point of view, I suppose all of this kills my chance of ever being able to own a decorated General Lee replica...

SVreX wrote:

DaveEstey wrote: A museum isn't a memorial

Sounds like splitting hairs. The museum I was at most certainly was a memorial, on a grand scale.

Nobody sane is talking about actually taking Confederate flags out of museums. YES, I KNOW it's a battle flag that was never formally adopted; for convenience's sake lets all move past that and agree that we can call it "the Confederate flag". The flag's existence should not be eradicated from history any more than the National Socialist Party flag has been. It's fine when shown as part of history. Honestly, I don't even see a problem with flying it over a memorial to Confederate soldiers of the Civil War. That is history and history exists.

I do have a problem with it being used in official state flags. And it should not be flown on public property other than at Civil War memorials honoring Confederate soldiers.

It is also true that those states will have to decide whether they want to change their flags or not; it should not be a federal issue. But as long as they choose to leave that symbol in their official flag, they better get used to the other 43 of us thinking they're ignorant bigots. You don't get to give me the finger and expect me to smile about it.

On your house trailer or the back of your brodozer, knock yourself out. You only make yourself look like an idiot, not me.

Duke wrote: Honestly, I don't even see a problem with flying it over a memorial to Confederate soldiers of the Civil War. That is history and history exists.

The analogy of Germany flying a Nazi flag over WW2 memorials is a very good one. You don't see a problem with that? Keep in mind that those are usually public property as well.

Duke wrote: It is also true that those states will have to decide whether they want to change their flags or not; it should not be a federal issue.

Jeez! Let's not turn this into a state's right issue, ok?

GameboyRMH wrote:

Duke wrote: Honestly, I don't even see a problem with flying it over a memorial to Confederate soldiers of the Civil War. That is history and history exists.

The analogy of Germany flying a Nazi flag over WW2 memorials is a very good one. You don't see a problem with that? Keep in mind that those are usually public property as well.

As a memorial, I honestly don't. They were people who fought and died in a war under that flag. The underlying cause was evil. Some of the people were evil; some were just deluded or trapped. A memorial is by definition a marker of history. A Nazi flag flying over a WWII memorial is marking a part of that history, just like a Confederate flag flying over a US Civil War memorial is. It is possible to mark something and even honor it without glorifying it.

All of that is a far cry from using such a symbol in your modern flag that you fly officially at a place of government. Historical artifact != present day identifier.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Duke wrote: It is also true that those states will have to decide whether they want to change their flags or not; it should not be a federal issue.

Jeez! Let's not turn this into a state's right issue, ok?

Duke wrote: I think that anybody who claims the South fought primarily to resist Northern federal oppression is deluded, either by themselves or others.

I neither support nor condemn the Confederate Flag, or Puerto Rican Flag, Cuban Flag, Malcom X Flag, etc. It is protected by the first amendment of our constitution. Our constitution is something I support whole heartedly. Never in my time have I seen our constitutional rights attacked like they have been in recent years. If you do not like our Constitutional Rights then please find a county that better fits your beliefs and move there. Quit trying to change our country to appease the minority. Race tensions are at an all time high for my life time. It seems any time someone doesn't get their way it's because of their race. If you want to end racism, start by not blaming everything on race!!!!

I have my theories to how we have gotten here and they start with this administration,the current biased media and trickle down to all the sheep from there.

I'm over it. I want our country back

I feel your pain unk577.

In reply to unk577:

uh what constitutional right do you think is being infringed on? Where did you get that information? Why have a few people on this board said that?

As far as I have seen the states are removing it from state use. A private citizen can display what they want. This is not violating the First Amendment

Stores are refusing to sell the merchandise. They have that right. This is not a violation of the First Amendment.

I have not seen anything about any government entity, fed, state, county, or city banning citizens from displaying the flag.

Am I missing something or is this thread drift?

Flight Service wrote: In reply to unk577: uh what constitutional right do you think is being infringed on? Where did you get that information? Why have a few people on this board said that? As far as I have seen the states are removing it from state use. A private citizen can display what they want. This is not violating the First Amendment Stores are refusing to sell the merchandise. They have that right. This is not a violation of the First Amendment. I have not seen anything about any government entity, fed, state, county, or city banning citizens from displaying the flag. Am I missing something or is this thread drift?

Plus 111!one1.

Plenty of stories over the last few years about "Old Glory". Please google.

Flight Service wrote: In reply to unk577: uh what constitutional right do you think is being infringed on? Where did you get that information? Why have a few people on this board said that? As far as I have seen the states are removing it from state use. A private citizen can display what they want. This is not violating the First Amendment Stores are refusing to sell the merchandise. They have that right. This is not a violation of the First Amendment. I have not seen anything about any government entity, fed, state, county, or city banning citizens from displaying the flag. Am I missing something or is this thread drift?

I've read many stories of people being told they can't display the American flag over the last few years. I also believe he was referring to Constitutional rights in general, of which many are being trampled on.

GameboyRMH wrote:

Duke wrote: Honestly, I don't even see a problem with flying it over a memorial to Confederate soldiers of the Civil War. That is history and history exists.

The analogy of Germany flying a Nazi flag over WW2 memorials is a very good one. You don't see a problem with that? Keep in mind that those are usually public property as well.

I don't know if its still true, but the nazi flag and maybe even the cross were banned after WWII. The old German fighter aircraft could not display them.

unk577 wrote: Our constitution is something I support whole heartedly. Never in my time have I seen our constitutional rights attacked like they have been in recent years.

You must be young. Constitutional Rights have been attacked for pretty much the entire time they have been our rights.

Anti government speech was against the law back in WWI. Say something bad, go to jail.

The whole anti-communism time was really interesting- again attacking free speech.

Was the addition of "in God we trust" a violation of first amendment back when they were put in place?

The issue of cruel and unusual punishment has been an issue pretty much constantly.

Unlawful incarceration has been an issue, which was maxed out during WWII and the camps full of people of Japanese heritage.

This is very far from something new.

bravenrace wrote:

Flight Service wrote: In reply to unk577: uh what constitutional right do you think is being infringed on? Where did you get that information? Why have a few people on this board said that? As far as I have seen the states are removing it from state use. A private citizen can display what they want. This is not violating the First Amendment Stores are refusing to sell the merchandise. They have that right. This is not a violation of the First Amendment. I have not seen anything about any government entity, fed, state, county, or city banning citizens from displaying the flag. Am I missing something or is this thread drift?

I've read many stories of people being told they can't display the American flag over the last few years. I also believe he was referring to Constitutional rights in general, of which many are being trampled on.

Real, traceable stories or ones trying to rile you up? As it's totally legal to burn the flag. How anyone can claim they are not allowed to hang it would be beyond me. On a legal basis.

spitfirebill wrote: I don't know if its still true, but the nazi flag and maybe even the cross were banned after WWII. The old German fighter aircraft could not display them.

You're correct. In fact even foreign videogames and movies released in Germany need to have any Nazi symbols removed.

But for the sake of the analogy you can pretend they didn't

unk577 wrote: I'm over it. I want our country back

I absolutely loathe this whole "I want our country back" nonsense. It's incredibly presumptive.

Toyman01 wrote: In reply to alfadriver: Alfa, let me start by saying again, I've never been big on the Confederate flag, nor has anyone in my family. I'm an American first, a Southerner second. The Confederacy doesn't even enter the picture. Fly it or not, I personally don't care. I think it comes down to honoring family that died in a war, fought for a cause, that they believed in. Right wrong or indifferent, it's family and Southerners are all about family. God, family, country, in that order. Also, a lot of the South is shaped by the outcome of that war.

Again, what are they honoring? It IS honorable to fight and die for what you believe in... I guess. But do you find it honorable that people strap a bomb against their chest and blow themselves up? Just curious.

My point here is- what's being honored- the person, or what they fought for?

I'm not a scholar, but blaming the Civil War on slavery alone is as disingenuous as blaming the federal deficit on the military. Yes, it was a large part of it, but states rights were at the top of the list. How much power the federal government had to tell the states what to do within their own boundaries. A lot of people paid in blood to reach that decision. To wipe that from history is shortsighted at best.

As Gameboy posted, and to call it NOT about slavery ignores why states rights were being fought for in the first place. Like the fight against England to become the US, the trace goes back to economic issues as well as rights. In this case, the right to own people as property, which had a massive impact on the economy was the rights and economic issue. Which is to say, largely about slavery. I'm sure more can be come up with- but a massive majority of the reasons can be traced back to slavery or not. Otherwise the line between the north and south would not have been drawn on Slavery/non-Slavery states. Nor would new states been argued mostly over their slavery rights.

To blame the murder of 9 people on a flag that flies atop a memorial to the many dead is the sign of a small mind. The media and race baiters, unhappy at the lack of riots and civil disorder, seen elsewhere in the country, baited a hook with a flag and many in this country swallowed it hook line and sinker. I'll say it again, a flag isn't the problem.

I don't see anyone blaming the flag.

I see people re-thinking what the flag means and represents. To EVERYONE and not just themselves. And it represents oppression to many of the represented/citizens- well, perhaps it's not a good idea to use as a symbol of the state.

alfadriver and I are agreeing on a political subject.

In reply to Duke: Can't see your pic at work. but I agree.

alfadriver wrote:

bravenrace wrote:

Flight Service wrote: In reply to unk577: uh what constitutional right do you think is being infringed on? Where did you get that information? Why have a few people on this board said that? As far as I have seen the states are removing it from state use. A private citizen can display what they want. This is not violating the First Amendment Stores are refusing to sell the merchandise. They have that right. This is not a violation of the First Amendment. I have not seen anything about any government entity, fed, state, county, or city banning citizens from displaying the flag. Am I missing something or is this thread drift?

I've read many stories of people being told they can't display the American flag over the last few years. I also believe he was referring to Constitutional rights in general, of which many are being trampled on.

Real, traceable stories or ones trying to rile you up? As it's totally legal to burn the flag. How anyone can claim they are not allowed to hang it would be beyond me. On a legal basis.

Yes, traceable. Its the only kind I pay attention to, and no I'm not going to go searching for them to prove it to you.

I wonder how things would've ended up if Lincoln would've stayed within the law and just let the southern states secede from the union. Certainly, if we were still two separate countries today, there would not still be slavery in the south. Quick, someone point me to some sort of alternative history type novel so I can see how it could've worked out.

I’m not sure that I like the analogy to the Nazi flag. There is a difference between slavery and a systematic killing. No, I can’t come up with a better analogy, but I don’t like that one.

I think one of the most interesting parts for me is that the South was extremely loyal to their States, not to the Confederacy. It was one of their greatest weaknesses as a country. So it appears to me that the culture part of it has been lost and misconstrued by the current generations who fly the flag.