What the Confederate flag means to me

Appleseed wrote: I get it. Say you are a historical re-enactor. You have a complete Waffen SS uniform that you use for re-enactments and education about WWII. Someone comes to your house and sees you in the uniform. The association will be immediate. You are not a neo-Nazi, but that's what they'll think without explanation, and possibly, even thereafter.

FWIW, a good friend of mine in Chucktown is a Confederate reenactor. He does it for the historical perspective; in fact he had a big part in the raising of the Hunley several years back. He's not in any way a supporter of slavery and has no qualms about saying the South was dead wrong.

I find it amusing how this whole thing is driving the sales of confederate flags. Heck a buddy of mine just ordered one today for the pure and simple reason of pissing off those that say he shouldn't have it. He is a Mexican by the way. General Lee merchandise prices have also gone through the roof.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBQPmSZr1QY

Alas, I will not be alive when "being a racist" means: one who loves racecars & racing.

I suppose I should have been more careful when I earlier wished for the above to happen, as the General Lee could now be considered a "race car".

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: This flag, which represented a treasonous insurrection by wealthy white slave owners is flying everywhere. Something should be done!

Except that flag was for the birth of a nation and the other represents treason in our current nation. Plus we didn't go to war with England to be able to continue enslaving others. The Confederate battle flag is hate speech. No different than outta swastika on a Jewish temple.

yes, but if the point of the flag's display and use is to address racism, it is a a sign of ignorance and historical fallacy to assume that the north at the time of the civil war was not just as 'racist' in the belief of the superiority of whites.

they aren't the patron saints of all that is good, despite how politically popular a punching bag the south is on 'discussions' about race. look at some of abe lincoln's quotes...

madmallard wrote: ...look at some of abe lincoln's quotes...

THe more things change... :

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and cause me to tremble for safety of my country; corporations have been enthroned, an era of corruption in High Places will follow, and the Money Power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the People, until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic destroyed."

--ABRAHAM LINCOLN, letter to Col. William F. Elkins, November 21, 1864

Keep in mind the civil war did not end slavery...the 13th amendment did. The two States that voted against it were New Jersey and Deleware if I remember correctly.

yamaha wrote: In reply to Flight Service: Wouldn't surprise me, as the younger generation was coming to age at that point, on both sides some officers were squaring off against their former West Point instructors/commanding officers. I wonder if Sherman's "March to the Sea" would have netted him war criminal status in today's world.....

Maybe, because much of his destruction was focused against civilians. He also went out of his way to not liberate POWs.

racerdave600 wrote: Keep in mind the civil war did not end slavery...the 13th amendment did. The two States that voted against it were New Jersey and Deleware if I remember correctly.

I think Delaware didn't pass it until early 1900s

Toyman01 wrote: In reply to alfadriver: Alfa, let me start by saying again, I've never been big on the Confederate flag, nor has anyone in my family. I'm an American first, a Southerner second. The Confederacy doesn't even enter the picture. Fly it or not, I personally don't care. I think it comes down to honoring family that died in a war, fought for a cause, that they believed in. Right wrong or indifferent, it's family and Southerners are all about family. God, family, country, in that order. Also, a lot of the South is shaped by the outcome of that war. I'm not a scholar, but blaming the Civil War on slavery alone is as disingenuous as blaming the federal deficit on the military. Yes, it was a large part of it, but states rights were at the top of the list. How much power the federal government had to tell the states what to do within their own boundaries. A lot of people paid in blood to reach that decision. To wipe that from history is shortsighted at best. To blame the murder of 9 people on a flag that flies atop a memorial to the many dead is the sign of a small mind. The media and race baiters, unhappy at the lack of riots and civil disorder, seen elsewhere in the country, baited a hook with a flag and many in this country swallowed it hook line and sinker. I'll say it again, a flag isn't the problem.

I'm sorry to say this but the Civil War was absolutely due to slavery. Any attempt to tie causation anywhere else is just deflection or worse an attempt to obfuscate. Your Calhoun ancestor firmly ensconced slavery into the Confederacy. Jim Calhoun believed that people of color were animals deserving of slavery.

Mr. Calhoun was at the forefront of the war for slavery. Note I did not reference Northern Agression because just like the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny and Jesus, it is a fairy tale.

markwemple wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: This flag, which represented a treasonous insurrection by wealthy white slave owners is flying everywhere. Something should be done!

Except that flag was for the birth of a nation and the other represents treason in our current nation. Plus we didn't go to war with England to be able to continue enslaving others. The Confederate battle flag is hate speech. No different than outta swastika on a Jewish temple.

Pretty sure this guy thought it was treason in the current nation and was a little put off by it.

Years ago I promised myself that I would no longer spend money in the south. This was due to the confederate flag flying over the seat of government in multiple southern states. This thread has reinforced my resolve to not spend a dollar in the south. I am saddened by the 'southern heritage' arguments as it rings as hollow as a 'German heritage' nazi flag. I am further saddened that GRM subscribers from the south are so blind to the reaction to the racist battle flag that most reasonable people experience. If your heritage is oppressive and racist, then perhaps it isn't worth celebrating. Add that to starting a war that killed more Americans than any other... Then maybe you can understand why the rest of us reasonable proper are tired of dealing with this bullE36 M3 flag.

oldtin wrote:

markwemple wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: This flag, which represented a treasonous insurrection by wealthy white slave owners is flying everywhere. Something should be done!

Except that flag was for the birth of a nation and the other represents treason in our current nation. Plus we didn't go to war with England to be able to continue enslaving others. The Confederate battle flag is hate speech. No different than outta swastika on a Jewish temple.

Pretty sure this guy thought it was treason in the current nation and was a little put off by it.

That is totally equivalent. Absolutely. Yes indeed.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

madmallard wrote: ...look at some of abe lincoln's quotes...

THe more things change... : "I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and cause me to tremble for safety of my country; corporations have been enthroned, an era of corruption in High Places will follow, and the Money Power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the People, until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic destroyed." --ABRAHAM LINCOLN, letter to Col. William F. Elkins, November 21, 1864

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/lincoln.asp

Look, of course it was about slavery... but it was really a labor dispute. If you take away all the investment in slave labor and then have to pay a wage for work on top of it ... big economic issues for your entrenched agriculture system follow.

The north was not solely locked into agriculture but the south was. So, it isn;t like southerners were evil and northerners were white knights... only one of the two was able to financially take the high road and still be OK. The south was fighting to make their own decisions because they were one dimensional - with the primary issue of the day being slave labor.

The north was not a place where former slaves mingled at parties with the Rockefellers. The class prejudices still prevailed - they were just exploited differently. They were better workers than the Irish and cheaper to pay.

THe war was not fought for freedom of the slaves by true and righteous liberators - it was to deny the sovereignty of the confederate states and restore the union. It was CAUSED by financial damage that the abolition of slavery would rend on the economy of the southern states.

So, like all wars... it was about money.

moparman76_69 wrote: I'm 33 born,raised, and lived in Mississippi until 2006. I've seen more truck flying Confederate flags in Indiana than I ever did back home. Most people will never understand how things work in the south. To say white people and their "racism" is the only part of the problem is naive. A large portion of the black community works in a manner to get each other as much free govt assistance as possible. This includes getting a job in the welfare office to grease the wheels of an application. If you run across someone with that attitude and you don't immediately give them what they want the race card gets played. I seen plenty of black people with food stamps driving a new car with new clothes while a white family that barely makes ends meet makes too much money to get assistance. Racism goes both ways people. But I'm sure it's a simple flag that causes it all. p.s. it's OK if you don't believe me, neither did my wife until she saw it first hand.

Most of this post is offensive. Black people work to get as much free stuff from the govt as possible? berkeleying really!! White people receive way more free stuff from the govt than people of any color. White people in red states receive the most assistance.

This thread is full of semi racist or offensive posts about 'southern heritage' and this berkeleying bullE36 M3 flag. I can tell you that the rest of us modern human berkeleying beings are tired of the bullE36 M3 southern heritage and that berkeleying toilet paper flag.

Flush the heritage and that flag down the toilet. We are tired of celebrating racism through the guise of 'southern heritage'

mattm said: This thread is full of semi racist or offensive posts about 'southern heritage' and this berkeleying bullE36 M3 flag. I can tell you that the rest of us modern human berkeleying beings are tired of the bullE36 M3 southern heritage and that berkeleying toilet paper flag. Flush the heritage and that flag down the toilet. We are tired of celebrating racism through the guise of 'southern heritage'

It is so sad that your delicate sensitivities are so burdened by the indifference shown by some Southerners. Wherever do you go to relieve the pain that chip on your shoulder brings?

Cone_Junkie wrote:

yamaha wrote: In reply to Cone_Junkie: I'm more worried about the 10th amendment to be honest. The second will usually balance itself out with time.

That falls in to the context of the debate actually. The Supreme Court recently decided that Texas has every right to stop allowing the confederate flag on their license plates.

I suppose somewhat, but the 10th pertains to the power the states and people GIVE the federal government. Point of it was that they are only allowed to do what we authorize them to do, nothing more. If you don't see how that has been completely bypassed, IDK what to say.

SVreX wrote: In reply to Flight Service: That's not the same thing as flying on the dome. But let's pass on that for a minute. I agree theoretically on the whole "shouldn't fly over public property" thing. But the museum/ memorial question completely screws that up (and nobody has answered my question). Most of these are on public properties. Should the Confederate flag be displayed at memorials and museums, even when they are public property?

The way that is set up, it has appearance and would give a "flying at the state capital" to all but the most fervent visitor. I believe that was the point when it was placed there. Now a public property museum it should be shown, but not flown.

I disagree with the memorials and never quite understood them. They lost. I know the arguments but what can you actually say.

Here is so and so. He was a traitor to his nation fought and killed many Americans and lost.

Being raised in the south I never understood the positions taken.

But this is my first post in this frey that is wholly my opinion. So take it for what it is worth.

In reply to yamaha: The state owns and produces that tag up and until it is sold to you. In some states you are merely using it and the state still owns it. I can not see how that would be a violation of free speech by no longer distributing something.

No one is saying you can't have one, just we aren't selling anymore.

Would Virginia be guilty of a free speech violation if they stopped selling Virginia is for lovers tags?

Let's step back for a minute. All of this rhetoric started because quite possibly the media cherry picked a picture of this kid with a Confederate Flag to imply it was race related. Maybe it was, maybe the kid hated everyone, including himself, it all should come out in the wash.

Meanwhile who is benefiting from this E36 M3 storm? Not us, the people. The wasp nest has been stirred and "news" is being created because the media wants it to be about race.

I'm going back to my Craigslist search, there should be less bullE36 M3 there

unk577 wrote: ...to imply it was race related...

Goes into a historic black church and says:

“I have to do it. You’re raping our women and taking over the country. You have to go.”

Maybe?

... or was that Trump....

T.J. wrote: I wonder how things would've ended up if Lincoln would've stayed within the law and just let the southern states secede from the union. Certainly, if we were still two separate countries today, there would not still be slavery in the south. Quick, someone point me to some sort of alternative history type novel so I can see how it could've worked out.

Probably not the best, but try Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove. Time travelers bring AK-47's to the Confederate Army. The only one I can think of right now.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Look, of course it was about slavery... but it was really a labor dispute. If you take away all the investment in slave labor and then have to pay a wage for work on top of it ... big economic issues for your entrenched agriculture system follow. The north was not solely locked into agriculture but the south was. So, it isn;t like southerners were evil and northerners were white knights... only one of the two was able to financially take the high road and still be OK. The south was fighting to make their own decisions because they were one dimensional - with the primary issue of the day being slave labor. The north was not a place where former slaves mingled at parties with the Rockefellers. The class prejudices still prevailed - they were just exploited differently. They were better workers than the Irish and cheaper to pay. THe war was not fought for freedom of the slaves by true and righteous liberators - it was to deny the sovereignty of the confederate states and restore the union. It was CAUSED by financial damage that the abolition of slavery would rend on the economy of the southern states. So, like all wars... it was about money.

Hey now there will be no bringing reason and facts into this argument.

Everyone knows that the north was full of nothing but kind hearted souls that wanted to free the slaves while those devils in the south only cared about racial superiority. That is when that angel from Washington, Abe, put his foot down and single handedly ended slavery and defeated that dirty rebel scum.