What the Confederate flag means to me

rebelgtp wrote: Everyone knows that the north was full of nothing but kind hearted souls that wanted to free the slaves while those devils in the south only cared about racial superiority....

Is anyone saying the north was buddy-buddy with the black man? I don't think so. Most thought of them as sub-human as the south. Hell, even Teddy Roosevelt, very progressive for the time, 20 ish years later was caught admitting the black man would never be equal to the white man!.

The difference? The north did not have NEAR the financial investment in the mostly free labor from the black man.

aircooled wrote: Is anyone saying the north was buddy-buddy with the black man?

That is the general mind set of the vast majority of people that have no real understanding of the mind set of the vast majority of the population back then. Everyone gets so set on North good south bad that they don't look at facts.

In reply to nderwater:

I respect your opinion, but I'm of the mind that to have true freedom, we have to allow for things we detest.

I think much of our country has chosen to accept the 'Merica! illusion of freedom without thinking about it.

I think the KKK should have the right just like any other group to free association, and even march in parades, etc. Just like I (and I expect, the vast majority of people) have the right to turn my back on them if they choose to do so.

Suppressing free speech and free expression is a strange and two-faced coin here in the US. We can have offensive art exhibits defended at the highest levels, foul language ratcheted up in movies & TV, behavior that is criminal promoted in movies & video games... but when it comes to what a person says? or the flag they fly? the level of political correctness in our country is, I think, pretty much the opposite of what the nation was founded on.

This includes things like setting up "free speech zones" blocks away from where the President is speaking (and yeah - this didn't start with our current President). On the other hand, people should be respectful of the person, the office, and the event and protest accordingly. Silently holding up a sign, for example. Or not chanting whatever during a speech (though before and after is fair game!)

I think one of the root issues here is simply the lack of respect for one another.

Interestingly, and not to compare specifically... Amazon still sells: Gay pride flags Nazi flags (though few) and I can likely find more offensive stuff to fill my Internet search history.

Now, I also expect that it's the right & freedom of any company to choose not to manufacture or sell an item. So I'm not calling them out as evil or anything. In today's society, they're doing what they perceive (probably correctly) will result in fewer lost sales and customers.

In reply to Flight Service:

FWIW, you missed the point of what I was saying, it was just about federal overreach. I wasn't using that in terms of the flag issue.

I only read the first 2 pages or so of this thread yesterday but it did get me thinking.

First, SVReX, I appreciate the genuine thought and time and effort that you put into the positions that you take. Even though we may not always agree, I really respect that, especially in an age of many making decisions based on sound bites and ignorance.

Back to the topic at hand, I read this interesting article this morning that I thought was relevant to this discussion, as it takes the words of the past, from the time of the confederacy, and let's them speak for themselves about their intent.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/

rebelgtp wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Look, of course it was about slavery... but it was really a labor dispute. If you take away all the investment in slave labor and then have to pay a wage for work on top of it ... big economic issues for your entrenched agriculture system follow. The north was not solely locked into agriculture but the south was. So, it isn;t like southerners were evil and northerners were white knights... only one of the two was able to financially take the high road and still be OK. The south was fighting to make their own decisions because they were one dimensional - with the primary issue of the day being slave labor. The north was not a place where former slaves mingled at parties with the Rockefellers. The class prejudices still prevailed - they were just exploited differently. They were better workers than the Irish and cheaper to pay. THe war was not fought for freedom of the slaves by true and righteous liberators - it was to deny the sovereignty of the confederate states and restore the union. It was CAUSED by financial damage that the abolition of slavery would rend on the economy of the southern states. So, like all wars... it was about money.

Hey now there will be no bringing reason and facts into this argument. Everyone knows that the north was full of nothing but kind hearted souls that wanted to free the slaves while those devils in the south only cared about racial superiority. That is when that angel from Washington, Abe, put his foot down and single handedly ended slavery and defeated that dirty rebel scum.

Hell no the North was not full of angels. There's a lot of truth in the stories of the exploitation of freed blacks after the Civil War. There were many books written to 'prove' that the black man would never be the equal mentally of the white man and yes they came from the North as well as the South, along with the oh so enlightened European countries.

Even after that, the fact that the North pushed to end slavery and the South said 'oh HELL no, we can't make it economically if we have to PAY these people' then started a war to protect that economic system and did it under the Stars and Bars and the Southern Cross (among other flags) means they are symbols of an insurrection which was there to hold the black man down. They need to go from government owned buildings.

mattm wrote:

moparman76_69 wrote: I'm 33 born,raised, and lived in Mississippi until 2006. I've seen more truck flying Confederate flags in Indiana than I ever did back home. Most people will never understand how things work in the south. To say white people and their "racism" is the only part of the problem is naive. A large portion of the black community works in a manner to get each other as much free govt assistance as possible. This includes getting a job in the welfare office to grease the wheels of an application. If you run across someone with that attitude and you don't immediately give them what they want the race card gets played. I seen plenty of black people with food stamps driving a new car with new clothes while a white family that barely makes ends meet makes too much money to get assistance. Racism goes both ways people. But I'm sure it's a simple flag that causes it all. p.s. it's OK if you don't believe me, neither did my wife until she saw it first hand.

Most of this post is offensive.

Mattm:

May I kindly remind you that in one of your previous post you made a poke about Jesus being a fairytale and showed your intolerance and dislike for Christianity. I would hope you all are watching the response from the victims of this church. They show how you handle hatred.

In reply to mattm:

I make stereotypes and generalizations about a certain group of people and so do you. Like I said until you live it you won't understand, until you've been told you can't do/have/understand something because its only for "our people" you won't understand.

And for the record I didn't bring up southern heritage, but I'll take your bait.

Southern heritage to me is working hard, manual labor to provide for your family no matter the circumstance. It's the idea that as long as your able bodied you shouldn't be on any govt assistance. It also includes an inherent distrust of government.

But that's OK according to you I'm just a racist inbred idiot E36 M3bag who believes in the "imaginary man in the sky" you dislike so much.

To the original topic, I know removing the flag from existence won't do anything but add fuel to the PC police's fire. But, if the people say it should go then so be it.

In reply to yamaha:

Gotcha

FWIW, when someone says "Southern Heritage" I picture this guy with a coon dog at his heels sipping sweet tea in a rocking chair on a massive porch.

^^^^^ And they are bringing him back

Fletch1 wrote:

mattm wrote:

moparman76_69 wrote: I'm 33 born,raised, and lived in Mississippi until 2006. I've seen more truck flying Confederate flags in Indiana than I ever did back home. Most people will never understand how things work in the south. To say white people and their "racism" is the only part of the problem is naive. A large portion of the black community works in a manner to get each other as much free govt assistance as possible. This includes getting a job in the welfare office to grease the wheels of an application. If you run across someone with that attitude and you don't immediately give them what they want the race card gets played. I seen plenty of black people with food stamps driving a new car with new clothes while a white family that barely makes ends meet makes too much money to get assistance. Racism goes both ways people. But I'm sure it's a simple flag that causes it all. p.s. it's OK if you don't believe me, neither did my wife until she saw it first hand.

Most of this post is offensive.

Mattm: May I kindly remind you that in one of your previous post you made a poke about Jesus being a fairytale and showed your intolerance and dislike for Christianity. I would hope you all are watching the response from the victims of this church. They show how you handle hatred.

Just because I don't believe doesn't mean I am intolerant. I'm not trying to prevent you from worshipping whatever deity you wish, I just don't believe which is my right.

I'm told I'm intolerant if I don't believe/support what some people do. Isn't that my right? That's a whole other topic though. Jesus love's ya.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

madmallard wrote: ...look at some of abe lincoln's quotes...

THe more things change... : "I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and cause me to tremble for safety of my country; corporations have been enthroned, an era of corruption in High Places will follow, and the Money Power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the People, until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic destroyed." --ABRAHAM LINCOLN, letter to Col. William F. Elkins, November 21, 1864

He was probably seeing the 1920s coming rather than the 2020s...but the point still stands.

Edit: whoops, actually not:

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/lincoln.asp

In reply to GameboyRMH:

The damn internet is so tricky that even the saavy fall prey once in a while ;)

Another case of ...

Fletch1 wrote: I'm told I'm intolerant if I don't believe/support what some people do. Isn't that my right? That's a whole other topic though. Jesus love's ya.

Uh no, you're intolerant because you are a dickhead to others about their thoughts and beliefs. Big difference

What does the Confederate Flag mean to me?

Nothing. I wasn't alive 160 years ago. 0 berkeleys given.

In reply to HiTempguy:

Wow. I take it you know me that well? Can you show me where I have been? Nevermind. Carry on. Lot's of hate and vitriol on here.

HiTempguy wrote:

Fletch1 wrote: I'm told I'm intolerant if I don't believe/support what some people do. Isn't that my right? That's a whole other topic though. Jesus love's ya.

Uh no, you're intolerant because you are a dickhead to others about their thoughts and beliefs. Big difference

Nice...

You get to join the growing ranks of those incapable of understanding the nuances of pot and kettle jokes.

oldsaw wrote:

HiTempguy wrote:

Fletch1 wrote: I'm told I'm intolerant if I don't believe/support what some people do. Isn't that my right? That's a whole other topic though. Jesus love's ya.

Uh no, you're intolerant because you are a dickhead to others about their thoughts and beliefs. Big difference

Nice... You get to join the growing ranks of those incapable of understanding the nuances of pot and kettle jokes.

If someone wants you to "tolerate their intolerance" (for example, the WBC loons accusing others of intolerance for blocking mourners from their protests and otherwise shunning them) that's not a pot & kettle situation. There's a difference between the meanings of "tolerance" in the political & mechanical contexts.

Not really, if you want someone to be tolerant of whatever you are into than you have to be tolerant of what they are into. Just because you think something is right doesn't mean someone else does, that's the problem with "tolerance" and "PC worship". YOU don't get to choose what someone can be tolerant of anymore than he can what you are. That's why being rude about someone's religion(insert belief here) IS the same as being rude about beliefs on goldfish(insert opposite belief here). It also lowers the conversation to mudslinging. See above^.

I'm not taking sides, I am Pointing out that just because someone doesn't like or agree with something doesn't make them intolerant, it makes them human. Welcome to America.

Confederates were considered rebels. ie: "Rebel Yell"

The battle flag represents rebels. This is why it is flown in the north. Nothing to do with slavery, states rights, freedom etc.

Btw: It has been mentioned that the battle flag is not the Confederate States flag, yet no has shown it. Lets see it.

Yes, the United States of America have done some really bad things. Yet other peoples struggle to get here.

That's my two cents.

oldsaw wrote:

HiTempguy wrote:

Fletch1 wrote: I'm told I'm intolerant if I don't believe/support what some people do. Isn't that my right? That's a whole other topic though. Jesus love's ya.

Uh no, you're intolerant because you are a dickhead to others about their thoughts and beliefs. Big difference

Nice... You get to join the growing ranks of those incapable of understanding the nuances of pot and kettle jokes.

Why? The person in question was being insulting to people. Im not religious, I don't care. But when someone goes "people call me intolerant because I dont think the same way they do" its outright false. They call him intolerant because by the definition of being a dickhead, he is being one.

As others have stated, you dont get to choose what is and isn't tolerant.

rebelgtp wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: So, like all wars... it was about money.

Hey now there will be no bringing reason and facts into this argument. Everyone knows that the north was full of nothing but kind hearted souls that wanted to free the slaves while those devils in the south only cared about racial superiority. That is when that angel from Washington, Abe, put his foot down and single handedly ended slavery and defeated that dirty rebel scum.

Nobody thinks that the North was full of fervent True Believers ready to die for their oppressed black brethren. Nice try, though. At least we're not trying to whitewash the bitter economic and cultural truth by claiming that the Southern secession was primarily a resistance movement against federal tyranny.

99% never really understand history......