What your opinion of the UAW?

In the discussions about auto industry promlems and impending bailouts, there has been a lot of strong anti-UAW senitment. At the risk of bringing a big flounder to the board, I am curious to know this:

I. What is your opinion of the UAW?

II. How did you form that opinion?

1. They are lazy, overpayed, and need not exist anymore. They are killing Detroit.

2. Reading business journals about auto worker wages, productivity, and quality in the US (UAW vs. non-UAW).

I have no problem with unions in general when they are looking out for the employee AND the company.

The issue I have locally with the UAW is simple.

I have a bowling buddy named Dave. He has worked for GM since 1991 as a transport specialist. He drives a load of subframes from one depot to the next. He makes $21.00 per hour... Unless he works over 8 hours per day, which he does every day, then he makes $31.50 per hour after 8.

That is fair.

The thing is Dave has a simple route in which he recieves a load (as in he sits in a truck and someone side loads his trailer) and drives a mile and a half and then unloads (well, the dock crew unloads) A round trip takes an hour. (Here comes my issue)

On an average day Dave will work 10.5 hours and deliver 6 loads of parts. If you do the math you will see that Dave takes a nap between EVERY load. He has gotten away with it for 15 of 17 years and will get to do it until he retires or the company goes out of business while he sleeps 5 hours a day to make $60,000 per year! I understand he does not work during the change over and if they are down he gets 90% at the job bank.

I spend the 7 years prior to working for GRM as a supervisor of UAW skilled tradesmen, so I've got a love/hate relationship with the UAW.

I think the UAW needs a really good enema, but shouldn't be thrown away. They're getting a really bad rap in the midst of this economic crisis. Stories of $75 and hour jobs are BS. On Christmas day when we would work (7 years in a row) the skilled trades made about $64 and hour. Though many of the production jobs are simple, they are not all easy. Imagine if an industrial engineer studied what the rest of us do for 8 hours and wrote instructions to standardize it and make it as efficient as possible, you'd be busy son of a gun.

On the other hand, when I left I couldn't stand another day of having some berkeleying shiny happy person try to pull some stupid E36 M3 and get away with it (UAW disciplinary procedures are set up to prevent members from being fired.) If the senior UAW members suffered a little more risk of losing their jobs, they'd be MUCH better employees (or out of work, which is fine if they deserve it.)

I think they make a convenient scapegoat for 40 years of mismanagement. I'm not saying they're without fault. Not at all. But they're just one part of a much bigger cluster berkeley, and the stupid contracts that are now biting the Big 3 in the butt are part of that 40 years of mismanagement.

John Brown wrote: The thing is Dave has a simple route in which he recieves a load (as in he sits in a truck and someone side loads his trailer) and drives a mile and a half and then unloads (well, the dock crew unloads) A round trip takes an hour. (Here comes my issue) On an average day Dave will work 10.5 hours and deliver 6 loads of parts. If you do the math you will see that Dave takes a nap between EVERY load. He has gotten away with it for 15 of 17 years and will get to do it until he retires or the company goes out of business while he sleeps 5 hours a day to make $60,000 per year! I understand he does not work during the change over and if they are down he gets 90% at the job bank.

So, he's idle for about 30 minutes between loads. Not enough time to put him to work doing something else.

Sounds to me like a failure of the management, and not a failure of the worker.

Sorry about the size.

Take note that this is total compensation not hourly wage. The hourly wage will likely be around 30% less than that, maybe more considering some of the benefits they are supposed to get (job banks etc.)

From the same article:

The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D

And I personally think college professors tend to be overpaid.

1) I have a rather negative view of them.

2) A lot of it comes from the continual strikes which really put a pinch on the automakers. The news coverage of salaries etc does not help my perception of them.

2a) I also get to see up close and personal some of the screwups that pass right on by, many of which I have related here. I worked for a Toyota dealer with products built in non union US plants and you just did not see that kind of crap there.

I have a co worker who has an uncle who works in one of the GM assembly plants. His only job is to install side windows on the right side of window vans. Right now, cargo vans far outsell window vans meaning he sits on his azz waiting for a window van to come along which is maybe 1 in 20. He puts in the window and sits back down. He has something like 18 years senority, makes around $60K a year plus bennies and doesn't really do shi+. I know this because he stood right back here in my shop and told me this to my face.

I had a whole long rant typed up, but suffice it to say that I don't support any organization that creates a manufacturing disadvantage for domestic companies in our own country.

When Honda/Toyota can build cars for less than Ford/GM, on our own soil, we clearly have a problem.

1. The purpose of any union is to have its members paid more than they’re worth. If this weren’t an absolute truth, there’d be no point in having the union…underpaid workers would simply resign and work for another company that paid them appropriately.

2. I’m a process engineer and I’ve made a career out of understanding dynamics such as flows, interactions, constraints, etc…no good ever, ever, ever comes from meddling with a process.

Frank Borman – “Capitalism without bankruptcy is like Christianity without hell”. In this quote we see how unions ultimately commit their members to catastrophic failure by the very nature of their refusal to tolerate small, appropriate, incremental failures.

Jeff Goldblum / Jurassic Park - "Nature always finds a way"

RX Reven' wrote: 1. The purpose of any union is to have its members paid more than they’re worth....

Although realistically true in most cases, I think unions are most analogous to affirmative action. Both are only really of any use when there is an inequity or prejudice that can be assumed (as in always there), otherwise it's just screwing everyone else.

I have worked with unions but never the UAW. I have a low opinion of them(unions in general) based around their defense of a few workers who comitted some "violence in the workplace" errors.

That said, I have worked with some union electricians who were a joy, due to their high skill level. They would stand around a B.S. at work etc. but their work was done on time at the bid cost and to a very high standard.

I think I've worked with 5 or 6 separate(probably more) unions in my short career. Hell, i even worked one place where the unions did jack for the people and abused them because they were mostly Vietnamese immigrants.

So......

opinion is low due to unions general defense of bad eggs vs the good. The system is set up to benefit the lazy, bad tempered and violent. It is sad really, cause there are some great people working in unions and some places where they are still needed.

ignorant wrote: opinion is low due to unions general defense of bad eggs vs the good. The system is set up to benefit the lazy, bad tempered and violent. It is sad really, cause there are some great people working in unions and some places where they are still needed.

Well said. A good union would look out for the bulk of the membership, which would have to include the company as a whole. Good management would eliminate the need for a union.

I can't agree with the thought that unions are killing Detroit, although it certainly isn't helping. Corporate greed is worse. The worst I've seen from a UAW member was being lazy, maybe a petty crook here and there. I've seen much worse activity by members of senior management.

There was a time (longer than there wasn't in this country) before labor and safety laws where people worked for 18hrs a day in awful conditions, their children worked at age 5 and they still couldn't afford to live a decent life of any kind.

They organized, risked their lives and fought hard to reverse that so that there is a little expectation today of decency for effort. For a time, labor in this country needed the muscle and the voice that big union brought but for the most part that time has passed. It is counter-productive right now.

My opinion, I guess, is that the union was a natural occurrence - a check that balanced the run-away power of big money. Human nature being what it is - in only a few years of unchecked advance and the need would be there again.

There was a time when we all had to kill our own meat, grow our own vegetables, and make our own clothes. Now we pay underdeveloped countries to do all that for us.

Joining a union in my opinion is similar. I would go from working for my job to paying someone else to fight for me. I show up, do my work, I'm protected by a big scary political organization, why should I improve? I have a union to get me raises and benefits.

I personally think unions suck. In some rare occasions they actually rise up and fight FOR the workers instead of sap their paychecks. In other situations its a waste.

For instance. My parents were both school teachers. When the school board proposed a new contract that violated labor laws and discriminated against females, the union stepped in and helped out. Or at least tried. Their hands are tied and the school board knew it, so they ended up settling for a crappy contract.

Contrast that with something like the UAW and its clear that you can't say unions are good or bad as a blanket statement.

I think we're too caught up in PC stuff. We demand equal rights for the 55-year-old fat lazy drunk who shows up 5 minutes late on the assembly line as we do the 30-year-old go-getter foreman who has his heart in the job. In fact we pay the old drunk MORE and he can't get fired without having union lawyers line up to sue the car company.

I'm an actor by hobby. I've had several opportunities to join SAG, AFTRA, and Equity. I passed. The number of Union jobs for actors is pathetically small comparatively so competition goes through the roof. And I honestly don't like the special treatment. Do you know that if I join SAG, I eat from a special catered lunch area that the non-union folks can't eat from? If I'm in Equity, they have to provide me with an Equity rep, my own dressing room, and I get all kinds of benefits, like a paid understudy and days off for something as little as a hangnail. Did you know that if I'm equity, and I see a dancer headed for a nail in the floor and I pick up a hammer to save the day, I will most likely be kicked out of the union and the house might lose its Equity contract.

Not me, man. I'm passionate about my art, and that means I WANT to share a dressing room with my hard-working artist friends. I WANT the full experience. I WANT to pick up a hammer to save my friend's foot from costly and painful damage.

I'm a Libertarian and I approve this message.

Tim Baxter wrote: I think they make a convenient scapegoat for 40 years of mismanagement.

Yep, agreed.

Tom Heath wrote: .......I can't agree with the thought that unions are killing Detroit, although it certainly isn't helping. Corporate greed is worse. The worst I've seen from a UAW member was being lazy, maybe a petty crook here and there. I've seen much worse activity by members of senior management.

Yes.

There are surely some bad apples in the unions, but the real problem is companies that are managed by people who only look to the short-term, next-quarter profits.

And those management people are spurred on by investors who don't care about long-term stabilty (or the folks on the production line, for that matter)...they just want a quick buck and will bleed the company dry and walk away.

In my opinion the real fault is the investor class that promotes managers that will do their bidding for profits right now (and with little concern for the long term stabilty of the company).

The Japanese companies always looked long-term and didn't make decisions based on short-sell investors. Their cars are good because their management was more concerned about long-term success. That also worked well for the blue collar folks, so the managment/worker relationship ended up more cooperative and less adversarial.

As bad as some unions can be, at least they have some long-term interest in the auto campanies.

The investors didn't care what deals were made with unions when the money was flowing. But now that they are missing out on their short-term gains, they blame the folks in the trenchs.

W. Edwards Deming must be rolling over in his grave.

I may not be liked for saying this BUT::

My wife works for the DMV.....and is a due paying UAW member because of her position. I am VERY thankful for the quality of health coverage we have because if it.

Granted, I also think a lot of the line workers are way overpayed because of the UAW as well.

aeronca65t wrote:

Tim Baxter wrote: I think they make a convenient scapegoat for 40 years of mismanagement.

Yep, agreed.

Tom Heath wrote: .......I can't agree with the thought that unions are killing Detroit, although it certainly isn't helping. Corporate greed is worse. The worst I've seen from a UAW member was being lazy, maybe a petty crook here and there. I've seen much worse activity by members of senior management.

Yes. There are surely some bad apples in the unions, but the real problem is companies that are managed by people who only look to the short-term, next-quarter profits. And those management people are spurred on by investors who don't care about long-term stabilty (or the folks on the production line, for that matter)...they just want a quick buck and will bleed the company dry and walk away. In my opinion the real fault is the investor class that promotes managers that will do their bidding for profits *right now* (and with little concern for the long term stabilty of the company). The Japanese companies always looked long-term and didn't make decisions based on short-sell investors. Their cars are good because their management was more concerned about long-term success. That also worked well for the blue collar folks, so the managment/worker relationship ended up more cooperative and less adversarial. As bad as some unions can be, at least they have *some* long-term interest in the auto campanies. The investors didn't care what deals were made with unions when the money was flowing. But now that they are missing out on their short-term gains, they blame the folks in the trenchs. W. Edwards Deming must be rolling over in his grave.

Ding ding ding..

Winnar winnar winnar....

Totally right. Bad unions and their behavior are in place because management let them get that way.

curtis73 wrote: There was a time when we all had to kill our own meat, grow our own vegetables, and make our own clothes. Now we pay underdeveloped countries to do all that for us. Joining a union in my opinion is similar. I would go from working for my job to paying someone else to fight for me. I show up, do my work, I'm protected by a big scary political organization, why should I improve? I have a union to get me raises and benefits.

Well... see there is the difference - the original unions BECAME a political organization... in the beginning they were a mob of angry mofos who banded together to stop militia from bashing in their skulls one at a time.

They suck now, and maybe they sucked then... but they sucked less than a good beating and jail time. Once they became a political force the same thing that happens to all political machines took over.... too much power to not look out for its own interests above all else. Too bad it is run by the same shortsighted asshats that run Detroits "other" industry.

I still kill my own meat occasionally so I know how just in-case... ;)

I have mixed fealings on the UAW, but I feel the current situation is more due to poor managment and such.

I come from a long line of union organizers, dating back to around 1910 or so, and while this doesnt qualify me to comment on the UAW, I do think my father and grandfather would roll in their graves if they knew what was happening with unions today.
They worked hard, putting their lives at risk at times to fight for job site safety, prevent abuse, end child labor, and remove discrimination from the work place through building unions. they proved over and over again the employers and employees can and will benefit from a productive partnership, if they work together and treat each other with decency, provide a fair days work for a fair days wage, and the security that the workers would have a job the next day, and the employers would have the skilled manpower to fill their orders. today its all about who can screw who first, and hardest. be the employer vs the worker, or the union leaders burning their members, and on and on... there's no cause or honor in it now for the most part, though im sure there are some rare exceptions.. and it wasnt perfect "way back " either, just seems the exceptions have now become the rule.
I also think in many cases, there is no longer a need for a union, we now have comprehensive state and federal laws that protect workers, thanks in most cases to union activists, though there not perfect. But in many cases, the unions are solely a financial tool for manipulation, on many levels , and that was just a small part of what made them necessary in the first place..now it seems its the only part left..

there is still a place for unions in many industries, and I am not anti union, im simply anti abuse, no matter which group its coming from....

If you and I can work without any unions behind us, what makes the auto industry workers so special? I don't get the whole concept of working for the UAW.

Is it possible to work in union plant without joining?

Some unions are great, others just suck the life out of the profession.

I'm neither pro union nor anti union... I'm pro capitalism, and letting outside special interest politics skew anything is a step towards un-capitalism.

MitchellC wrote: Is it possible to work in union plant without joining?

Each local is a little different, but I think that typically you can decide to not be a member, but you still have to pay the dues.

You then don't get to vote on contracts, leadership etc. or have any representation. Plus you receive the added benefit of being hated and ostracized by every one of your coworkers.