What your opinion of the UAW?

ddavidv wrote: 2 things as I blast in and out of here... 1) Unions are evil and a disaster not because of the members, but because of the leadership, who are generally only interested in their own financial and political gain. They do an excellent job of brainwashing the sheep into believing it's all about them. I watched a very valuable assembly plant close it's doors and move shop to Mexico after the UAW held endless strikes to extort as much blood from the company as they could. They finally found the breaking point. 2) While probably somewhat outdated now, read Ben Hamper's book "Rivethead". It will tell you all you need to know about the mindset of the typical union employee.

I will admit that there are bad unions, and that the UAW might be one.

Imagine you have a car that doesn't work. It has problems. I'm sure on this forum that this isn't hard to imagine. What do you do with it?

Do you fix it? Do you replace it with a better model that is newer and is designed better, or do you simply destroy it in anger because it is 'bad' and then go on angry diatribes about how bad the very concept of a car is, how cars are inherently evil, and how, because of this one bad car, that we should do away with all cars.

Now imagine you have a Union that doesn't work. It has problems....

Snowdoggie wrote:

ddavidv wrote: 2 things as I blast in and out of here... 1) Unions are evil and a disaster not because of the members, but because of the leadership, who are generally only interested in their own financial and political gain. They do an excellent job of brainwashing the sheep into believing it's all about them. I watched a very valuable assembly plant close it's doors and move shop to Mexico after the UAW held endless strikes to extort as much blood from the company as they could. They finally found the breaking point. 2) While probably somewhat outdated now, read Ben Hamper's book "Rivethead". It will tell you all you need to know about the mindset of the typical union employee.

I will admit that there are bad unions, and that the UAW might be one. Imagine you have a car that doesn't work. It has problems. I'm sure on this forum that this isn't hard to imagine. What do you do with it? Do you fix it? Do you replace it with a better model that is newer and is designed better, or do you simply destroy it in anger because it is 'bad' and then go on angry diatribes about how bad the very concept of a car is, how cars are inherently evil, and how, because of this one bad car, that we should do away with all cars. Now imagine you have a Union that doesn't work. It has problems....

I would argue that the situation is more akin to "I need to get from point A to B. I don't like walking. The horse is pretty good for A to B, but it is expensive to maintain, and E36 M3s all over the place. I wonder if there's some kind of motorized horseless carriage thing that could move us to a new era in transportation."

The horse didn't work. It was abandoned for the car.

Reading an article in the Baltimore Sun about GM and the UAW was really aggrivating. GM is potentially going to go under and the UAW worker's responses were basically, we're not going to give any more. You need to give a little to get a little. If you don't want to help your company survive, I can't pity you when you are out of a job.

I'm trying hard not to be a union defender....

But, I'll humor some of you guys and say they're paid too much for what they do. Plus they get too many benefits. And the market rate for those jobs would naturally be much lower...

Can't we say the same thing about almost every berkeleying skilled and unskilled job in America?

If we let the world market set wages, won't every American see a freefall in wages and benefits as the world starts to equalize economically? (And this is what is happening, though it may take 1000 years).

Engineers. Easily had cheaper in India.

Doctors. Ditto

Surgeons. Ditto. And people are taking advantage of this via Medical Tourism.

Minumum wage jobs: Most of the world would benefit from a Min. Wage job in America.

Your only answers can be that:

1. It's a systemic problem

2. That's a long way off

3. We're concerned only with America in this discussion.

Which are ironically the answers hardcore union supporters have been using.

-James

jamscal wrote: I'm trying hard not to be a union defender.... But, I'll humor some of you guys and say they're paid too much for what they do. Plus they get too many benefits. And the market rate for those jobs would naturally be much lower... Can't we say the same thing about almost every berkeleying skilled and unskilled job in America? If we let the world market set wages, won't every American see a freefall in wages and benefits as the world starts to equalize economically? (And this is what is happening, though it may take 1000 years).

I disagree. The market rate for those jobs will equalize. As it is now, its unfairly skewed toward the union. Let's say I'm a plumber who isn't in the union. I have to work much harder for less benefits and pay than a union plumber. The union plumber gets benefits, higher wages, mandated breaks, and job security that I don't, just because they pay dues to a goon squad with political power. That isn't fair market rate, that is like Lando Calrissian accepting the Han Solo deal from Darth Vader.

In a truly capitalist society, letting the world set wages is the WHOLE POINT. Do you really think that a $55 toothbrush is necessary during your hospital stay? Do you think that a doctor's million-dollar salary is really warranted when a Veterinarian gets about a tenth of that? Do you think that a Lawyer who gets billed out at $4000/hr really needs that much money?

Then contrast that with... do you really think that the teachers of the world who mold the future of the world really deserve basically one step above minimum wage?

I just find the whole wage structure in this country to be so skewed its ridiculous. Yes, doctors and lawyers go to school for a long time... so do college professors, and they don't make huge salaries.

The medical system in Canada sucks, but as an American, go up there and step on a nail. I did. You know what my entire emergency room visit cost? $486 including drugs, gurney, cleaning, bandaging, two doctors, the whole deal, entirely out of my pocket. Why? Because they don't have insurance companies and drug companies working together to drive prices sky high. I got a prescription of Anitibiotics and a tylenol/codeine for $8 each. Canadian doctors also often defect to the US - less work, cushier jobs, lower taxes, and triple the pay.

The unions are falling under a similar paradigm; providing greater pay, better benefits, cushier jobs, lazy employees, and all for the cost of dues. Its Darth Vader saying, "take a rest under my cloak, be loyal to me, and we will crush the capitalist rebellion with one swift stroke."

This thread actually brought back to mind a conversation I had with a friend's grandfather. He worked at the Caterpillar plant in York, PA which I believe was a UAW facility. He told me he invested heavily in his retirement accounts because he saw the manipulation the union was doing there and knew they were going to eventually screw things up. He was right. Cat got sick of it & the plant was eventually closed. Highest paid manufacturing jobs in the county were gone because they kept demanding more. Literally, I think a person pushing a broom in that place was making $17/hr - back in the mid-90's.

Curtis73:

I think we agree, somewhat.

My point is that people complain about the non-market high pay union jobs (I agree they are) while at the same time every wage in America is much higher than the world market rate for a similar job.

i.e those people who complain about union wages today won't be so smug when the world starts competing for their jobs.

Some say that people would happily work in an auto factory for $X/hr. instead of the $28/hr.

I say there is someone in the world, right now, that will comptently perform YOUR job for half your pay.

-James

In reply to jamscal:

You have some points my friend. My buddy, a computer programmer worrking for Boeing or lockheed or one of those in seattle, is part of a white collar union at his work. It is not a choice.

There are pluses and minuses

Plus - his seniority (at age 28) is good enough that 3-4 rounds of layoffs would have to happen before he is hurt

Plus - he has good vacation and benefits

Minus - changing jobs is a bitch as they have to interview those with seniority first

minus - jobs have VERY specific salary #'s attached. negotiatiion isn't needed. Some would see this as a plus but I see this as a big minus.....

India and China tech centers in my company do all the real engineering work. Hell they are cheaper and probably smarter than me. I do feel like engineering has sometimes been comoditized. I also have thoughts of a white collar union sometimes, but not that offen.

Teachers in our school district start around $42K,after five years, it is $60something. Four year degree to start, but have to get masters within 3 years-at the districts expense.Then they are paid a bonus annually for having the masters(which the states requires). One hundred eighty days of school,( including holidays, half days, sick days and personal days) no more than 5 hours of classes daily, and you think that the UAW has run amuck? But afterall, it's about the kids...

If you think teachers only work 40 hours a week, you're sorely mistaken.

Many schools require new teachers to do summer school classes, and a typical teacher's work day starts at 6:30 and ends at 5:30 until you include planning, after school activities, detention duty, intramurals, music programs. Not to mention science fairs, history fairs, and other fairs. My average work week teaching High School Music was about 75 hours. That didn't even include every single football game I had to attend, Band Camp which started in August, band rehearsals 3 times a week after school, ACC band competitions that went through February, then I did the pit orchestra for the spring musical, four concerts throughout the year, traveled for christmas concerts all through december, and somewhere in there I taught four classes and gave 15 private lessons a day. I was at the school at 6:30am every day, and often didn't get home until 8:30 at night... unless there was a game, and then I didn't get home until midnight.

My salary? How does this sound... $21,350 in an upper middle class PA town.... and that was INCLUDING my extra-curricular supplement of nearly $3000.

Those averages haven't been updated either. Those averages still have the baby boomers with 30 years under their belts. Take a new survey and I think you'll find its much lower. My father taught at the same school, the same class, the same grade for 30 years. He was team leader for 15 years. His last year's salary in 2002? $31,200. My friend here in TX teaches 3rd grade, she is often at the school for 14 hours a day (mandated by the state in some cases) and she makes 21,300 with a Masters in Child Psychology and Development.

Teachers get paid less than half of what they're worth. If they were paid based on how much love and compassion they put into their jobs and how much they want to see those kids succeed, they would be paid like a doctor.

The misconception is with non-teachers who believe the whole 10 weeks off/ 40 hour week junk. I grew up with two teachers for parents. You know what we got for Christmas? An Orange. Citrus fruit was too expensive to keep around, so it was a treat that was reserved for once a year. I remember one year we had enough money that mom bought dad a used lawn mower for $30. We had to supplement our income/food with farming.

Sure, nowadays it at least pays the bills, but I get so tired of the misconceptions the public has of us. When my father had to go on strike because the school board's contract offered health care for men but not women, the community reacted in a very similar way. Things like - "they only work 180 days" or "they get paid enough" kept cycling around the community. Maybe they wouldn't have said that if they saw us sleeping around the fireplace because we didn't have a furnace for three years.

Sorry... off the soapbox now. But to keep it with the thread at hand, the union was powerless. The law mandates that we can only strike for x days, then we are forced to go back to work under the old contract. What kind of power is that?

I don't know where your teacher examples come from, but it's hogwash! My better half teaches high school here in Washington state. She went to college for 5 years to get a degree with meaning (science AND teaching) and has been working her @$$ off for the last 3 years teaching. She has to get her Master's (and then her National Cert and then a certain number of credits/clock hours, etc, etc) to continue teaching so she's paying for it out of pocket. She goes to work at 630 in the morning and is rarely home before 5. That's a ten hour workday, every day. Plus she coaches knowledge bowl which takes another 4 hours a week in practice and a 5-hour meet every couple of weeks. In the summer she has to work on her own schooling so she's always at some state required seminars or classes. Saying teachers have all sorts of time off is being ignorant. I know her case isn't "special" because her mother and brother-in-law are also both teachers here in Washington (one is elementary, the other is middle school) and they work the same nuts schedule. To top it all off she makes less money then I do and I'm a freaking Work Study! Teachers are way underpaid and under-appreciated and it's a crying shame that GRM'ers lumped them in with the UAW.

Preach it Curtis!!!!

My wife works in a private school and does not get the benefits of a teachers union. The benefits are crap. The pay is E36 M3. However, she dosen't have to do deal with idiot bureaucracy.

Still dosen't pay for the loans on her 2 masters degrees

Minimum wage in this state is $8.07/hour.

http://www.lni.wa.gov/workplacerights/wages/minimum/default.asp

$8.07 x 56 (hours in week) = $451.92 x 45 (weeks in a year) = $20,336.40

So roughly $10K more then minimum wage, after paying for 4-5 years of college and now has to pay for Graduate School for her Master's which is required by state law if she wants to continue teaching which averages $15K-$30K (100% out-of-pocket).

http://www.fordhamobserver.com/riding_out_the_recession_in_graduate_school

So in reality most minimum wage earners make more then teachers after they have to pay all of their state and national required continuing education. Teachers teach because they love to, not because of the money.

I change oil all day, I want full benefits, $18/hr, demand a raise every year, full pension whenever I leave the company, but wait I'm actually educated, have a high school diploma, an AA in Business Administration, and about to complete a Bachelor's in Advertising/PR.

What's the key difference between a Union worker and me?

Not to mention that teachers don't get overtime.

freaking late night conferences..

I'm the oldest of seven chidren.

All seven of us earned (at least) a Masters degree.

I'm the lowest paid.

I'm a teacher.

(but I love my job)

"Salaries are based on prior teaching experience as well as undergraduate and graduate degrees. As of May 2008, starting teacher salaries range from $45,530 (bachelor’s degree, no prior teaching experience) to $74,796 (master’s degree, 8 years teaching experience). Teachers who already have a master’s degree but no teaching experience will start at $51,425. With annual increases plus increases for additional coursework, teachers' salaries will rise to the current maximum of $100,049 per year over time. For more information on current teacher salaries as well as the teacher salary schedule that will be applicable for the 2008-09 school year" ... From the Teach New York website. See also : http://www.oswegonylion.com/octasalaries.html And saying teachers have all sorts of time off isn't ignorant, it's a fact. Summer school is a paid extra. Any after school activity is an extra that's paid. Hell, even being bus monitor(stand and watch little kids getting on and off )is a paid extra. There is no homework for teachers here, they have ample free time during the school day. The max classroom time is five 40 minute classes-do the math. This doesn't include the benefits, such as full medical for life(@no cost),tenure after 5 years-which means you cannot be fired, no matter how poorly you perform, etc. Maybe you should consider moving. My point was the teachers have a much stronger than the UAW.

With all due respect to the teachers (and I DO have a lot of respect for them), the sob stories related here just don't fly.

My father taught for 34 years and retired over 14 years ago. AT THAT TIME he was making $64,000 per year. He retired on a pension of 2/3 that, which he still receives today. Never sought an administrative position.

He worked summers, generally earning $1000 per week tax free painting houses.

He also had weekend gigs throughout the year which earned him a bit more.

He had (and still has) one of the finest benefits packages in the country.

He was a music teacher, so he had to do all the band programs, camps, football games, etc. Still had plenty of time to pursue his own interests, and several vacations per year.

He was respected in the community, admired by adults and students, influential with many people he came in contact with, and never missed a meal.

I think that's a pretty good deal, and any teacher who wants to can accomplish the same thing.

He did, however, complain just as much as any other teacher I've ever heard.

minimac wrote: And saying teachers have all sorts of time off isn't ignorant, it's a fact. Summer school is a paid extra. Any after school activity is an extra that's paid. Hell, even being bus monitor(stand and watch little kids getting on and off )is a paid extra. There is no homework for teachers here, they have ample free time during the school day. The max classroom time is five 40 minute classes-do the math. This doesn't include the benefits, such as full medical for life(@no cost),tenure after 5 years-which means you cannot be fired, no matter how poorly you perform, etc. Maybe you should consider moving. My point was the teachers have a much stronger than the UAW.

Of course its paid. Its a buyout depending on the level of extracurricular activities are expected of you in your position. My dad's last year he received a lump buyout of $340 for all of his science fairs, fieldtrips, and detention duty. But if he had to stay late to grade papers or to finish his state-mandated lesson planning, he got nothing.

As a music teacher I got $3000 flat buyout. That covered the following:

-2 months of band camp

-3 days a week band rehearsals

-every home and away football game

-every band competition

-every fieldtrip

-3 to 4 band concerts, 3 orchestra concerts, and 4 choir concerts, plus requisite extra rehearsals

-pit orchestra for the spring musical

-state-required continuing education over the summer (for which my district offered a whopping 10% grant)

All of that extra curricular activity accounted for at least as much time as my classroom. 5hrs in the classroom, and 5 hrs extra curricular every day on the average. All for a bargain flat rate buyout of $3000.

As far as I'm concerned, NO ONE can adequately know the life of a teacher EXCEPT one who has been a teacher themselves. If anyone naively thinks that a teacher works 5 hours a day and has 10 weeks off, they are sorely mistaken. Try at least 10 hours a day, no overtime, and the joy of trying to please at least one guardian, often 4 gaurdians per student, multiple administrators who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground, and the prying, naive eyes of a public who thinks we're paid too much money for what they think amounts to their children's day care.

If its such good pay and wonderful hours, then why am I ecstatic being almost 40 and making minimum wage as a happy hour bartender? yesterday my tips were $9 and I'm happy as a clam.

I look at those salaries on that website and I honestly wouldn't go back to it for that much money. That's not enough money for the responsibility they heap on your head.

Plus, once you consider that my own taxes help pay that salary, its another kick in the pants. A sizable amount of my salary went straight back to the district TO PAY MY OWN SALARY.

Oh... and concerning the tenure and not getting fired? Accept one hug from a student who is overjoyed at their success and just see how much that tenure means when the parents sue the district. You'll be canned before the paperwork hits the desk. I've seen teachers fired after 25 years for that very thing. A kid doesn't like the D you gave them? One well-placed comment like "Mr. Curtis put his hand on my knee," and its over even though it isn't true.

And the teacher's union? Fuhgettaboutit. If I don't like the fact that the school board is trying to illegally strip benefits from my spouse who also works for the district (true story), I can strike... but I'm required by law to return to the classroom in 14 days. What kind of power is that? The school board has millions in state funding available to squash our efforts. We have a handful of underpaid teachers paying tiny dues to a weak union that is bound by law to not have any real power.

That kind of stress doesn't come with a pricetag.

If you're happier making minimum wage and $9 in tips(don't forget to report that cash to the IRS- it is income)than teaching, obviously teaching wasn't for you. I can't say what they pay in Washington or Texas or East BF Egypt, but here in New York, and in my district, that is the starting pay. I 'm not pulling numbers out of a hat, you can look it up. The schedule is 5 forty minute classes-MAXIMUM, and school is open 180 days a year. Class starts at 7:35 and is finished at 2:45.There is nothing else required. And any extra activity is paid for. It's not a "buy-out". Take a look also at the NEA website and look at their "demands". They just don't want cost of living raises, they want cost of living plus at least 50% more, annually. Sorry pal, your sob story of the poor, taken advantage of teacher just doesn't wash in this neck of the woods. BTW, that $42+K starting salary, for someone just out of school w/no experience, was 3 years ago. They since have gotten a 22% raise, across the board, over five years.They don't have to strike, everything is retroactive. Now some states aren't as "progressive" and pay their educators poorly.Whos' fault is that? Like I said earlier, maybe you should consider moving... But again, the point was and is, the teachers union is stronger than the UAW. And anyone that thinks the N.E.A. doesn't have any power, is sadly mistaken.

curtis73 wrote: Plus, once you consider that my own taxes help pay that salary, its another kick in the pants. A sizable amount of my salary went straight back to the district TO PAY MY OWN SALARY.

Sounds pretty good to me. A sizable amount of my salary gets taken from me and goes straight back to the district TO PAY SOMEONE ELSE'S SALARY who is completely ingrateful and only wants to bitch about their job.

Am I to understand that you took a job as a band director and are now bitching that you had to have band rehearsals?

No pity here.

You're giving a lot of good teachers a black eye.

Sounds like bar tending is a pretty good choice.

Curtis:

You are way off, and I think you should stand down. I'm not sure where the heck you've been, but you haven't been listening very well, probably because you've been way too busy whining about yourself and not interested in other people.

I'm not going to go into a huge defense of the myself against the bs you just dished out, because most people around here already know me significantly better than you just summarized me, but just to be clear: the fact is I have 5 kids, I come from 4 generations of educators, my wife and I are both educators, I have served on the school board and the PTA, I have served as President of the local home education association for 2 years, I've been to EVERY SINGLE concert, sporting activity, play, or other extra-curricular activity for every one of my kids for 21 years, I pay DOUBLE my school taxes every year, because I home school so first I have to pay your sorry a$$ and then I have to buy all my own curricula, my family has NO paid benefits whatsoever, because we live on a single income with no benefits (and yes, I paid every penny of the medical expenses to have all 5 of my kids), and I've spent over 10 years of my life VOLUNTEERING for charities (some of them education based).

I was also a PA taxpayer while you were on the payroll, so yes, I do have something to say.

Go ahead and blame me for all life's troubles if you want to. I think you have simply made some bad decisions in life, and are now reaping what you sowed.

But my life is good, I love my family. I don't mind my $35K paycheck, and I'm PROUD of my kids (who are all well-rounded high-achieving honors students).

But I'd appreciate it if you would not call me white trash, filthy rich, space wasting, or illiterate. And I will certainly NOT tolerate you calling my kids stupid, or suggest that they are bound for mill working or prostitution.

My family and I have over 100 years of combined teaching experience. The fact is that teaching is a great profession, but it breeds a culture of discontent. Yes, teachers have to put up with a lot of crap, but when compared to other businesses and industries teachers have an honorable profession that is valued and well compensated with one of the best available benefits packages.

Yeah Curtis, you missed the mark with that personal attack by just a weee bit there.

I think everyone can see why you no longer work as a teacher....It's probably a good thing. go ahead flame away-I'm a big boy and can take it.