Not sure what you mean by backing down - it seems their intent was to simply sail past, make their presence known, and move on, I don't think they wanted to actually have a confrontation.
Not sure what you mean by backing down - it seems their intent was to simply sail past, make their presence known, and move on, I don't think they wanted to actually have a confrontation.
China built an island and asserted their control over waters within 12 miles of it then stationed at least two warships there. Nobody dared to argue with them, and the first time somebody came close enough, they warned them off until they left. If anything, that legitimized their claim as they can now show a successful defense of their territorial waters. Bottom line is, they still have an island with 12 miles of foreign ship free water around it.
If you really want to know what's going on, read all the Tom Clancy books. I've never run into a military foreign policy situation he hasn't covered, including the South China Sea situation. One of his later books, maybe after he was sharing writing credit...
Javelin wrote: Bottom line is, they still have an island with 12 miles of foreign ship free water around it.
Until the US Navy wants to stroll though again. China did not back us down.
Javelin wrote: ..they warned them off until they left. If anything, that legitimized their claim as they can now show a successful defense of their territorial waters...
Well... no, they just had a US warship sail right through it. Which was the whole point, to show that the US does not respect there supposed "territorial waters". I did not see anything that indicated that the US ship did anything under the instruction of the Chinese, they just sailed straight through.
It's kind of like a bum yelling at you about being on "their" sidewalk as you walk down it, then claim they chased you off when you kept walking, which was you intent the entire time.
Streetwiseguy wrote: If you really want to know what's going on, read all the Tom Clancy books. I've never run into a military foreign policy situation he hasn't covered, including the South China Sea situation. One of his later books, maybe after he was sharing writing credit...
SSN, 1996, also a video game, IIRC
Man was brilliant, called 9/11 in '93 at the end of Without Remorse.
China hasn't asserted anything, yet. They proclaimed. We deliberately violated their proclamation.
We always keep our ships on the move. Makes it easier to turn around if someone does something stupid.
China rants, the Navy treats them like a yapping puppy. Not even worthy of a smack on the muzzle. Just stroll right through their imaginary play pen without a glance.
The US Navy backed down? Not hardly.
Javelin wrote: China built an island and asserted their control over waters within 12 miles of it then stationed at least two warships there...
...and said they were theirs and no one was allowed in those waters. So the U.S. sent a ship, sailed it right past, and China wasn't able to stop, redirect, or retaliate against that ship.
It's like a guy in a bar claiming two tables and saying, "See this space between these two tables. This is mine, and no one is allowed to walk through here." So another guy decides to walk through that space to go to the bar.
"Hey. Don't you come through here or I'll kick your ass...
"Hey man, you're in my space now. You want a piece of this? You better not stop, or I'll kick your ass...
"That's right! That's right! You better keep walking. You know you don't want a piece of this."
Then he starts bragging how he showed him.
The Hoff wrote:We were having a d*#k measuring contest. I'm gonna guess ours is bigger.
They should be using a body tape measure. Those heavy duty ones could do some damage! 
Except the crazy guy built a fort in between the 2 tables and is armed.
I see it more like the bloods moved into a city block, kicked everyone else out and tagged the place. A year later a cop walks by on the furthest sidewalk where 2 armed gang members escort him out. Cops claim they have the gang under control, gang claims they defended their turf. What's reality? Gang still controls the block...
In reply to Javelin:
And we walked right through the middle of them anyway, because we're better armed and he can't stop us.
We were not escorted out. China did not do anything to stop or divert our ship. We were shadowed out. We went along doing exactly what we were doing, and China followed behind us.
China said, "You're not allowed to sail your ships through here."
We said, "Yes we are."
We sailed our ship through there.
China didn't do anything to stop or change what we were doing. They just followed behind yelling at us, but without getting close enough to threaten our ship.
Beer Baron wrote: China said, "You're not allowed to sail your ships through here." We said, "Yes we are." We sailed our ship through there. China didn't do anything to stop or change what we were doing. They just followed behind yelling at us.
It makes me wonder exactly what Javelin would consider not backing down.
In reply to keethrax:
Amidst all the hullabaloo, not a peep from the environmentalists or the MSM about all the critical marine habitat the Chi-Comms destroyed while piling tons of sand on those reefs. If the US was building islands in the Carribian and trying to block off the Gulf of Mexico (exactly what the Chinese are doing in the South China Sea), the screaming would be ear shattering.
China has been posturing and making threats in the South China Sea since they've had a Navy. I remember reading about their claims to the waters all the way to the Philippines territorial waters and how they were trying to enforce it, that had been several years ago.
China tried to goad us into a fight when our intent was to show that they didn't have the balls to pull the trigger first.
I've been in the South China Sea several times (USS Kitty Hawk). They're full of bluff and bluster, but they also have a finger hovering over the bang switch. Nobody in that geographical region likes them (except NK). They're bullies.
Right of innocent passage would apply if we even acknowledged it was their territorial waters. The Navy will sail anywhere that some other country says they can't just to make a point. Keeping sealanes open is standard navy business.
I would put money that we also had a sub there unbeknownst to China.
RoadRaceDart wrote: Amidst all the hullabaloo, not a peep from the environmentalists or the MSM about all the critical marine habitat the Chi-Comms destroyed while piling tons of sand on those reefs.
There's been quite a bit of discussion, it's just not covered by the news so you don't hear about it.
Paging Josh.. (Irish44j)
foxtrapper wrote: China: "you can't" US Navy: "Watch me" Longer version It's international waters and an artificial man-made object doesn't change national borders under international maritime law.
I'm assuming we were demonstrating the fact that we don't consider man made islands in the middle of the South China Sea (or wherever) to be part of China's actual country and therefore the 12 mi limit doesn't exist and we'll sail any berkeleying where we damn well please …
there is a LOT of controversy over that area of the ocean and what countries "own" what islands, and can you just create your own land like that
You can create land like that, but you don't get to call 12mi around it your territory.
Beer Baron wrote:Javelin wrote: The point is, we DID back down...No. We didn't. Backing down would be changing what we were trying to do based on China's demands. We went ahead and did exactly what we planned to exactly the way we planned to do it, and China claimed they chased us off. We didn't back down any more than a person who keeps walking past a house when a dog barks at them.
Perfectly said.
RoadRaceDart wrote: Amidst all the hullabaloo, not a peep from the environmentalists or the MSM about all the critical marine habitat the Chi-Comms destroyed while piling tons of sand on those reefs. If the US was building islands in the Carribian and trying to block off the Gulf of Mexico (exactly what the Chinese are doing in the South China Sea), the screaming would be ear shattering.
It's not like nobody's talking about it at all:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/the-coral-triangle/2015/jul/15/preventing-ecocide-in-south-china-sea
http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/sep/17/south-china-sea-images-reveal-impact-on-coral-of-beijings-military-bases
But if they're not going to stop for diplomatic reasons, do you think the Chinese are going to stop for ecological reasons of all things?
Edit: Also, in your hypothetical situation, I think the diplomatic issues would completely eclipse the environmental/ecological ones as well.
Appleseed wrote: In reply to keethrax:
I love that picture. Even though I know they were outdated, outclassed and slow by modern standards, there's just something intoxicating anout throwing out 2,000lb shells 10 miles and leaving football field craters in their wakes.
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