Where are all the younger folks?

Ooh! Ooh!  I know at least one answer to this one! Pick me! Pick me!

One day while stationed at Eglin AFB, I was working on a D7H dozer, lighting issue I think.

 While ~15 feet above the ground, I used my bird's eye view and looked around at my coworkers.  Half the shop was enlisted and young.  The other half were people that had been wrenching for ~30-40 years.

And I realized that the people that had been wrenching for most of their adult life sometimes moved like their age, 50-60ish, but mostly they moved like I remember my 80 year old grandparents did before they passed.

That was the day I decided I needed to become an engineer.

We have this discussion a few times a year, but for good reason. We have a trades shortage which is driving the cost up. That, and government policy, which we are seeing in this country, will increase the number of people in the trades.

I've told this story before. My teacher buddy, along with the provincial government, put on a presentation on the trades for (I think) gr 7 and 8 students a few years ago. The next day he got a call from an irate mother, she was pissed because her son was now showing an interest in the trades. He was better than that, he was going to university.

I was speaking with a new club member last week, who works for a large trades contracting company as a manager. He was telling me that the quality of apprentices he's seeing now is not very high but they're so desperate for people so they keep them anyway. He said a kid that day asked to see him, and complained that the job they gave him was too hot and requested something different.

For years, all I heard from people my parents age (I'm 40) was - "you gotta get that college degree".  My parents preached it.  My wife's parents preached it.  "You don't want to work outside like me" - my Dad, a heavy equipment mechanic. Another quote from my Dad when my brother asked about going into the military before college, which would have served him well was "I don't care if you join the French Foreign Legion - you HAVE to get a 4 year degree first!!!"

Now, the same people are saying "ha, shoulda went into trades no one wants to work hard anymore."  So which is it?  My degree (civil engineering) has provided me with great opportunities.  My wife's degree (marketing) not so much.  I'm not forcing college on my kids.  If they find a path they want to pursue, sure.  My oldest says photographer.  My youngest says he wants to be an engineer like Dad. 

I do think the attitude has changed drastically in the last 5 years and blue collar jobs are being praised again, which I am really glad to see. 

dclafleur said:

Wayslow said:

I teach electrical theory and industrial electronics to electrical apprentices at a community college a couple of evenings a week. There's been a major uptick in the interest in getting into the trades in the last few years. We still have a hard time finding drywallers, tapers, masons, concrete workers and any of the other so called mud trades. These are still good paying jobs that are either going wanting or being filled by temporary foreign workers.

It's easy to say "good paying jobs" what's the dollar amount? First Year, how much does one expect to earn?  I find a lot of these jobs are long on promise, short on payout, especially given how physically demanding they are. I'll add that if it isn't enough to get by on and live well you're going to have a hard time recruiting people who can get an easy job that they can't get by on vs a hard job they can't get by on.

I think my apprentice only made less than $100k in his first year, and it was only just under. My best friend, also a millwright, has a good job working for a major manufacturer and makes $150k/yr. I've been in six figures for 25 years, but now work 2 days a week and will make $60k.

We don't work hard physically, that may not be the case for some trades, but I don't know what they are, I really think that's just an excuse.

In reply to dclafleur :

Fair point. I work for a large unionized general contractor in the Toronto area.  All of our subcontractors are also unionized as is the majority of the construction in this area.  This impacts the wages and benefits I see.

My nephew started in the electrical trade just over two years ago. Although his base salary will be over $110k once he's a journeyman he's only making slightly more than half of that now.  He started out at $22 an hour as a pre-apprentice but once you add in his pension, vacation pay and benefits the starting rate is just north of $30 an hour. Other trades are similar. These numbers are all in Canadian dollars and our current minimum wage is $16.55 and heading to $17.20 as of October 1st to give you some perspective.

STM317 said:

If you can't fill the job, you're not paying enough.

While that's true on the face of it, money is not necessarily the prime motivator it once was.

There are more people willing to accept a lower income for a better work / life balance these days.  And 'quality of life' is not as financially based any more.  It may not be feasible to pay enough to overcome that.

Not a better or worse thing; just a new reality that the economy must adapt to.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

How much did we get out of that, $2k four years ago?  

yeah idk about your place, but my average age is all under 40

I've looked into a few construction jobs and from what I've seen the pay is not that great. You need to get a job with a chaotic schedule and long hours of hard work openly described as "dangerous" to get into the same ballpark of pay as a fairly ordinary 9-5 office job. So yeah, I looked at them, thought about it, and passed.

I just ran a fresh search for construction jobs as I typed this and the first one that popped up has one of those wages that makes me want to double-check whether it's legal to pay someone so little (Wayslow's numbers confirm that it is, but not a penny less). Moving materials around, pouring asphalt, building a pipeline, removing debris. Looks like it has normal hours and doesn't say dangerous, but is it better than flipping burgers or working the register? (Honestly might apply to this one because it has regular hours, no need to interact with customers and might be attainable).

Second one was along the lines of what I previously described - getting into the ordinary 9-5 office job range, involves dangerous work at heights, class 1/A license, 2-3 years' experience and a bunch of other training required.

Third pays about the same as the second, seems to be digging foundations and building houses. It'd be a 1hr+ commute for me though, next to a rather expensive town where everyone and their dog drives a Porsche Cayenne. The pay's probably not so great by local standards.

Yes to above, but also, we're all about to run off the Enrollment Cliff that colleges & schools have known is coming for a while, so it'll be an interesting ride.  

Starting in the late 70s/80s, but focusing on 2007/8 (especially), the birth rate dropped noticeably below replacement level and hasn't recovered since:

(graph courtesy of https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6901a5.htm)

Tl;dr:  the US birth rate is only being propped up by immigration.  Those would be workers are now the 17-18 year olds that would be recruited to work for you.  Why is your (not you personally/specifically SV ReX, anyone asking this question!) job the one they should take?  Yes, you need to plan on recruiting multi-ethnic and lingual people.

Peabody said:

dclafleur said:

Wayslow said:

I teach electrical theory and industrial electronics to electrical apprentices at a community college a couple of evenings a week. There's been a major uptick in the interest in getting into the trades in the last few years. We still have a hard time finding drywallers, tapers, masons, concrete workers and any of the other so called mud trades. These are still good paying jobs that are either going wanting or being filled by temporary foreign workers.

It's easy to say "good paying jobs" what's the dollar amount? First Year, how much does one expect to earn?  I find a lot of these jobs are long on promise, short on payout, especially given how physically demanding they are. I'll add that if it isn't enough to get by on and live well you're going to have a hard time recruiting people who can get an easy job that they can't get by on vs a hard job they can't get by on.

I think my apprentice only made less than $100k in his first year, and it was only just under. My best friend, also a millwright, has a good job working for a major manufacturer and makes $150k/yr. I've been in six figures for 25 years, but now work 2 days a week and will make $60k.

We don't work hard physically, that may be the case from some trades, but I don't know what they are, I really think that's just an excuse.

This is what I'm talking about, we say "trades" as if all things are equal.  All trades aren't equal similar to all college degrees aren't equal. Thank you for your transparency. I also can't speak for other industries but I know the tradesmen I work with hit some of the big dollar amounts due to the amount of overtime they put in. Out of curiosity, how do most folks get their apprenticeships in trades these days? What would someone tell a kid about to leave high school if they wanted a trade job?

dclafleur said:

Peabody said:

dclafleur said:

 

 Out of curiosity, how do most folks get their apprenticeships in trades these days? What would someone tell a kid about to leave high school if they wanted a trade job?

Universal for modern hiring - show a positive attitude, desire to learn and smile.  I don't know anyone running a business that wouldn't want this these days.  Finding good people willing to work for entry positions is not easy.

Fun note on worker age, in my mid/late 30s I was one of the oldest people in the software department of the healthcare megacorp I used to work at, and I was clearly the oldest person up to my level working in tech support. Ageism has always been notoriously rampant in the tech industry, where companies start shunning potential hires due to their age alone somewhere between their late 30s to late 40s, and I think it may be happening to me already.

pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

What's your sick, personal, and PTO leave policy like?

15 PTO days per year no questions asked plus 8 Holidays.  401K company match and health.

I also work 10 hour days and get 3 day weekends every single week.

Don't think that's the problem. 

STM317 said:

If you can't fill the job, you're not paying enough.

It's easy to say this, but it is not only employers who set wages. Our customers also set the wages. 

I miss out on a lot of work due to being overpriced in my area. I'm overpriced in my area due to what I pay my people and how I treat them. While I would love to be able to double everyone's pay, the market won't pay that. There is a fine line between underpaying and overpaying, between keeping employees happy and customers happy. Walking that line frequently keeps me up at night. 

In reply to Toyman! :

I think that sort of concern makes a lot of sense and may be another reason why this sort of work isn't appealing.

dclafleur said:

Wayslow said:

I teach electrical theory and industrial electronics to electrical apprentices at a community college a couple of evenings a week. There's been a major uptick in the interest in getting into the trades in the last few years. We still have a hard time finding drywallers, tapers, masons, concrete workers and any of the other so called mud trades. These are still good paying jobs that are either going wanting or being filled by temporary foreign workers.

It's easy to say "good paying jobs" what's the dollar amount? First Year, how much does one expect to earn?  I find a lot of these jobs are long on promise, short on payout, especially given how physically demanding they are. I'll add that if it isn't enough to get by on and live well you're going to have a hard time recruiting people who can get an easy job that they can't get by on vs a hard job they can't get by on.

I answered this one earlier.
 

The average starting wage in construction in my state is 3X the average starting wage in the state.  

SV reX said:

The average woman could do my job much better than me. 

But could she get the subs to do their jobs?

pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

How much did we get out of that, $2k four years ago?  

It wasn't just the stimmy checks. It was the realization that it's really nice to not eat lunch at your desk and maybe go for a walk with your wife before getting back to work.

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

Women have more obstacles to overcome than men, primarily in the areas of sexism and less physical strength. That said, the key to longevity in the trades is using your brains, and as a  result I know a number of women who have fared quite well.

Apprenticeboy's girlfriend is an electrician. Two tradespeople in the house, it's comfortable, and mortgage free. They're in their 20's. 

The place I work for had an open house last year for women in the trades. They had a lot of people come through but not a lot of interest other than that. 
I think it might actually be easier right now for a young woman to get an apprenticeship than a young man

Duke said:

SV reX said:

The average woman could do my job much better than me. 

But could she get the subs to do their jobs?

 

I think that's a different issue. 
 

I agree that there is a gender imbalance. I also agree that historically it was a sexism issue.  
 

I don't believe that is the case any more. Construction has always been slow to change, and the way they've hired was always to look for people with construction experience.  That's no longer necessary, but it's a hurdle for women right now.

The companies that learn to recognize that model is outdated will be rewarded with quality women construction leaders. It's a great moment for the companies that recognize it.

Yes. A woman could easily get the subs to do their jobs if she had the support of her company. Piece of cake.

In reply to Duke :

Something regular work from home taught me is that, if you don't like your job that much, it isn't so bad when you can work from home and not be surrounded by it.  We just lost regular work from home at my current place of employement (I was able to work from home one day a week) and five days in a row of this is really not helping my opinion on my current gig.

In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :

WFH was never an option for anyone in the construction industry, and it never will be.  I never missed a day of work the entire time through COVID.
 

But $150,000 salaries are an option for people who choose them.

SV reX said:

But $150,000 salaries are an option for people who choose them.

Agreed.

But $150,000 a year is not the final goal for somebody who wants more flexibility and free time, and can live with $50,000 if they get them.